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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To share the actual definition of antisemitism

541 replies

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:38

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:30

nc14 · 19/10/2023 13:26

@LemonyTicket Because others argued it wasn’t. But you don’t take issue with them derailing the thread, only those who disagree with them. It is not Jew or Israel bashing to disagree with what Israel is doing or label it with terms a person feels is appropriate by their definition. I also don’t see how it falls into your categories of anti-semitism.

It is not Jew or Israel bashing to disagree with what Israel is doing or label it with terms a person feels is appropriate by their definition

It isn't. However, it is, when you come to a thread about recognising antisemitism to do it.

Likewise, it's completely fine for me to discuss the scourge of suicide bombing amongst radical Islam.

Entirely twattish though to feel entitled to barge into a discussion of Islamophobia to do it!!

OP posts:
Tandora · 19/10/2023 13:32

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:20

You're missing a key point.

My suggested agreement for peace would include negotiating Jews to live as equal citizens of Palestinian territories.

Like they do in Israel.

That way everyone can live in areas they want to live in. Just legally and peacefully

So you are saying that would need to happen first?

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:37

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:30

It is not Jew or Israel bashing to disagree with what Israel is doing or label it with terms a person feels is appropriate by their definition

It isn't. However, it is, when you come to a thread about recognising antisemitism to do it.

Likewise, it's completely fine for me to discuss the scourge of suicide bombing amongst radical Islam.

Entirely twattish though to feel entitled to barge into a discussion of Islamophobia to do it!!

Question:

Why did you post in AIBU?

Starting a thread about what antisemitism means, and not wanting people to question that meaning (not that I have, I'm happy to go along with it), doesn't seem like a thread whose natural home is AIBU.

ChalkWitch · 19/10/2023 13:37

@AFieldGuideToTrees Ok you said ‘do not question or you will be accused of anti-semetic (sic) apologism’.
At no point did I say that. If you want to be pedantic over a missed word I will be pedantic over my original question. At no point did I say that so maybe it was you who was misreading?

nc14 · 19/10/2023 13:41

@LemonyTicket It isn’t Jew or Israel bashing but I’m still not allowed to comment on it when it is raised in conversation because it doesn’t fall in line with the OP’s intentions for the thread? Right, so as I previously said you want a thread where you and others can say whatever they like without challenge. MN isn’t the place for you.

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:42

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:37

Question:

Why did you post in AIBU?

Starting a thread about what antisemitism means, and not wanting people to question that meaning (not that I have, I'm happy to go along with it), doesn't seem like a thread whose natural home is AIBU.

All the other threads on the topic were here. Including the one which said in the OP "Mumsmet, can you please give us clear guidance on what is antisemitic because these threads keep getting deleted".

So I've done that.

Why is it bothering you?

Why are you questioning it?

OP posts:
AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:42

If their statement bothered you, you go ahead and have that argument. No one's stopping you, are they?

Er, yes, they are. Anyone trying to have a discussion that you don't want to have is accused of all sorts, and of derailing the thread.

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:45

nc14 · 19/10/2023 13:41

@LemonyTicket It isn’t Jew or Israel bashing but I’m still not allowed to comment on it when it is raised in conversation because it doesn’t fall in line with the OP’s intentions for the thread? Right, so as I previously said you want a thread where you and others can say whatever they like without challenge. MN isn’t the place for you.

Edited

"Allowed"?

I asked you to stick to the topic because Jews, right now, here, in Britain- including my children are dealing with this bollocks.

The fact I'm not even "allowed" to post this thread without attracting a swarm of people with agendas is a very sad reflection on Britain.

OP posts:
nc14 · 19/10/2023 13:47

@LemonyTicket You only asked people who disagree with Israel’s actions to stay on topic. As far as I can see you didn’t ask anyone else to.

ChalkWitch · 19/10/2023 13:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:48

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:42

All the other threads on the topic were here. Including the one which said in the OP "Mumsmet, can you please give us clear guidance on what is antisemitic because these threads keep getting deleted".

So I've done that.

Why is it bothering you?

Why are you questioning it?

It doesn't bother me where it is. I'm just wondering why you chose AIBU when it's known as a combative part of the forum.

You seem to want to just explain to people what antisemetism is, and help educate those who are unsure, not get into a big debate about it.

But big debates where people are pretty robust in disagreeing with each other is what AIBU is generally all about.

That's all. It's entirely your choice where you post.

justteanbiscuits · 19/10/2023 13:48

I will condemn anyone who calls for, basically, the extermination of others. Full stop. Whether they are Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Atheist etc etc etc.

I condemn Hamas for calling for the extermination of Jewish people. But this does not mean I condemn all Muslims, or all Palestinians. I will condemn those Jewish people who are calling for the extermination of Palestinians. This does not mean I condemn all Jewish people or all Israelis.

Unfortunately, this has led to me being called Antisemitic. I have been accused of antisemitism in this last week for not supporting the IDF financially (I live in an area that has quite a large Jewish population, and so a lot of collections of both goods and money have happened).

I have witnessed outright Antisemitism this week, and I have witnessed outright Islamophobia this week. I have close friends who are Israeli, and my sons have close friends who are Palestinian. My heart breaks for both right now.

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:51

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:42

If their statement bothered you, you go ahead and have that argument. No one's stopping you, are they?

Er, yes, they are. Anyone trying to have a discussion that you don't want to have is accused of all sorts, and of derailing the thread.

Dont gaslight me please.

I've asked no one to stop debating the Nazi accusation.

I have, however, VERY politely and repeatedly asked people to stop derailing this thread.

This thread is about defining antisemitism as a response to several people here indicating they were unable to understand it.

Specifically, it's there to help people navigate how to criticise Israel- even robustly- without being antisemitic.

Anyone who thinks it's the place to show up and start slagging off Israel might need to check themselves before they wreck themselves.

But carry on defending them. I'm sure the problem isn't their behaviour being in the wrong place - but more, as you put in - my thread being in the wrong place.

How very dare we

OP posts:
CampsieGlamper · 19/10/2023 13:52

I think your suggestion that criticism of prominent people who are Jewish is concerning.

A member of the Rothschild family made a lot of money in 1815 by stating Napoleon had won Waterloo, prices fell he bought up and when the news of Wellingtons victory came through shares rose. Good business or duplicitous?
George Soros may be lauded by many but has done duplicitous deeds and provocative stirring.

If you are implying that it is anti Semitic to criticise a person who has a protected characteristic (obviously not criticising for that characteristic) then you are wrong.

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I'm glad Mumsnet have at last agreed with me about one of the posts on this thread accusing fellow posters of antisemetism, Jew bashing, taking pops at Jews and being antisemetism apologists.

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:59

CampsieGlamper · 19/10/2023 13:52

I think your suggestion that criticism of prominent people who are Jewish is concerning.

A member of the Rothschild family made a lot of money in 1815 by stating Napoleon had won Waterloo, prices fell he bought up and when the news of Wellingtons victory came through shares rose. Good business or duplicitous?
George Soros may be lauded by many but has done duplicitous deeds and provocative stirring.

If you are implying that it is anti Semitic to criticise a person who has a protected characteristic (obviously not criticising for that characteristic) then you are wrong.

This is a really tricky aspect isn't it? Is someone being criticised because they're Jewish, or is a person being criticised for their actions, and they happen to be Jewish.

And what happens when the latter is the case, but the former is assumed by some? Or the other way round.

What can be looked at in more depth to ascertain which it is?

MadderthanMorris · 19/10/2023 14:00

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:26

That is a very good point.

It is a good point, but only when applied to the Palestinian "side". Because if one makes the same point about Israel, it taps into historical narratives about a secretive cabal of jewish clandestinely controlling the world, and is therefore antisemitic. Apparently.

I'm sure what the poster actually meant was "This might be a good time to point out that many countries BUT CERTAINLY NOT ISRAEL! employ an increasing number of paid "internet commentators" in a sophisticated attempt to control public opinion."

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 14:01

CampsieGlamper · 19/10/2023 13:52

I think your suggestion that criticism of prominent people who are Jewish is concerning.

A member of the Rothschild family made a lot of money in 1815 by stating Napoleon had won Waterloo, prices fell he bought up and when the news of Wellingtons victory came through shares rose. Good business or duplicitous?
George Soros may be lauded by many but has done duplicitous deeds and provocative stirring.

If you are implying that it is anti Semitic to criticise a person who has a protected characteristic (obviously not criticising for that characteristic) then you are wrong.

It's not "my suggestion". It's quoted from the Jerusalem Declaration.

Read it again

Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guideline

I'm sure people can "criticise" Jewish people in robust, and even aggressive manners without needing to use classic antisemitic tropes to do it.

Beyond that it preys, again, on the idea of exaggerated Jewish power. George Soros might be a prick. I've got no opinion on it.

But because he's Jewish, he is linked to conspiracies, tropes, hidden networks of power and evil.

The world has many powerful men. Many are rich. Many are pricks. We are able to criticise them without using antisemitic language and ideas towards the Jewish ones.

Anyone, for example, who believes George Soros has more power right now over the world than, say, Rupert Murdoch or Elon Musk has probably fallen down a rabbit hole of antisemitic conspiracy theory.

They believe its true in the same way other conspiracy theorists believe Bill Gates injected us all with nano robots.

OP posts:
Gruntsandgroans · 19/10/2023 14:12

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:04

Because you can't begin peaceful renegotiation if the other side will not accept the existence of your state and focus all their energy on blowing you and your citizens up.

And you cannot begin discussing who lives where whilst people on each side are subject to different rules.

There's no reason Palestinian Arabs can't live in the Jewish ruled state of Israel with equal rights under law. Actually they can and do make up 20% of the population.

So surely the same should apply and Palestinian territories should welcome a 20% Jewish population with similar equal rights.

Things can't be all one way.

You can begin to humanise the Palestinians amongst the Israeli population though? I'm sure you know that opinion polls in Israel show that significant numbers of Israelis view Arabs as 'dirty', 'primitive' and not valuing human life. Generations of school children have been taught that, according to a study of Israeli textbooks by the Hebrew University in Jerusalem - 'The only representation in textbooks is as refugees, primitive farmers and terrorists. You never see a Palestinian child or doctor or teacher or engineer or modern farmer.' Also 'They describe Arabs as vile and deviant and criminal.' Surely this is one of the very first things and probably one of the most helpful that can be done right now to help relations, now and for future generations?

ismu · 19/10/2023 14:12

Thank you for this thread @LemonyTicket I did ask @MNHQ to put some guidelines up around antisemitism and you've done it brilliantly.
I do find these contradictory as point 12 implies that you can never criticise the actions of state of Israel if you don't read the statement as a whole. I was accused of antisemitism on a * surprise* ! deleted thread because I criticised Netanyahu and his appalling government who are more than happy to embrace as much conflict as possible if it gets him off the hook for corruption.
I'm also more than happy to criticise any other world leaders and to condemn Hamas and their leadership for their appalling actions. We cannot create sacred cows of any religion or country, but it must be possible to criticise without causing offence. It also means we must use our intelligence and not retreat to the playground!

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 14:12

MadderthanMorris · 19/10/2023 14:00

It is a good point, but only when applied to the Palestinian "side". Because if one makes the same point about Israel, it taps into historical narratives about a secretive cabal of jewish clandestinely controlling the world, and is therefore antisemitic. Apparently.

I'm sure what the poster actually meant was "This might be a good time to point out that many countries BUT CERTAINLY NOT ISRAEL! employ an increasing number of paid "internet commentators" in a sophisticated attempt to control public opinion."

There's a huge difference between saying states employ people for this and implying the "Israel lobby took down Jeremy Corbyn".

One is a rational, balanced, evidence based statement of fact. We're well aware for example that Russia has a vast online disinformation campaign.

The other is conspiracy based garbage.

Jeremy Corbyn was brought down by a wide variety of factors including:

*The majority of his own party wanted him gone

*The opposition wanted him gone

  • The entire British press were against him

  • At least half the country didn't like him

To name but a few. The fact a few antisemitic cranks decided about 200 Jews did it as part of some intricate web of malign influences, including our students, is a sign of how frighteningly radicalised the Corbynite left is.

Is it preposterous conspiracy theory to believe foreign governments (various ones) hire people to shit post on social media? No. It's a well established fact.

Is it by turn rational to believe that the "Israel lobby" somehow control the entire British media, our key institutions and have manipulated the majority of our politicians and even half our citizens in order to control our elections?

No. No other fucking not rational. I can't imagine how messed up someone's brain would have to be to uphold that as credible but it's up there with Q,Anon.

OP posts:
Tandora · 19/10/2023 14:14

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:51

Dont gaslight me please.

I've asked no one to stop debating the Nazi accusation.

I have, however, VERY politely and repeatedly asked people to stop derailing this thread.

This thread is about defining antisemitism as a response to several people here indicating they were unable to understand it.

Specifically, it's there to help people navigate how to criticise Israel- even robustly- without being antisemitic.

Anyone who thinks it's the place to show up and start slagging off Israel might need to check themselves before they wreck themselves.

But carry on defending them. I'm sure the problem isn't their behaviour being in the wrong place - but more, as you put in - my thread being in the wrong place.

How very dare we

*This thread is about defining antisemitism as a response to several people here indicating they were unable to understand it

Specifically, it's there to help people navigate how to criticise Israel- even robustly- without being antisemitic.*

the definitions you have offered are very broad and in some cases subtle, and indicate a place for context. Inevitably, therefore, there will be times/circumstances where things are ambiguous and contested and people may have different interpretations.

I’m still curious as to how points 1) and 3) can effectively be navigated , whilst being able to discuss the relative power (including economic power) of the Israeli state in the area.

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 14:16

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:51

Dont gaslight me please.

I've asked no one to stop debating the Nazi accusation.

I have, however, VERY politely and repeatedly asked people to stop derailing this thread.

This thread is about defining antisemitism as a response to several people here indicating they were unable to understand it.

Specifically, it's there to help people navigate how to criticise Israel- even robustly- without being antisemitic.

Anyone who thinks it's the place to show up and start slagging off Israel might need to check themselves before they wreck themselves.

But carry on defending them. I'm sure the problem isn't their behaviour being in the wrong place - but more, as you put in - my thread being in the wrong place.

How very dare we

It's a bit rich of you to accuse someone else of gaslighting.

I didn't say your thread was in the wrong place. I asked why you'd put it in AIBU when you don't appear to want robust debate about the meaning of antisemetism and any other matters that arise along the way.

You said:

Specifically, it's there to help people navigate how to criticise Israel- even robustly- without being antisemitic.

And I've found it helpful. And
if you feel AIBU is the ideal home for it, that's your call. I don't have any real opinion on where it is.

But since it is in AIBU then I think you can reasonably expect some posters to not agree with the list of points, and to say so, and also to wander off in various directions of debate. And people who have both agreed with the list, disagreed with some of or all of the list, and those who have various opinions on other matters that have arisen, have expressed opinions.

Which seems pretty much par for the course for an AIBU thread.

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 14:18

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 14:16

It's a bit rich of you to accuse someone else of gaslighting.

I didn't say your thread was in the wrong place. I asked why you'd put it in AIBU when you don't appear to want robust debate about the meaning of antisemetism and any other matters that arise along the way.

You said:

Specifically, it's there to help people navigate how to criticise Israel- even robustly- without being antisemitic.

And I've found it helpful. And
if you feel AIBU is the ideal home for it, that's your call. I don't have any real opinion on where it is.

But since it is in AIBU then I think you can reasonably expect some posters to not agree with the list of points, and to say so, and also to wander off in various directions of debate. And people who have both agreed with the list, disagreed with some of or all of the list, and those who have various opinions on other matters that have arisen, have expressed opinions.

Which seems pretty much par for the course for an AIBU thread.

I didn't ask if the definition of antisemitism was unreasonable. That's been debated by scholars, experts, top organisations and global governments.

I asked if it was unreasonable to share it, given that many people were confused over it and yet seemingly incapable of using Google.

OP posts:
Tandora · 19/10/2023 14:21

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 14:18

I didn't ask if the definition of antisemitism was unreasonable. That's been debated by scholars, experts, top organisations and global governments.

I asked if it was unreasonable to share it, given that many people were confused over it and yet seemingly incapable of using Google.

Whether you are reasonable to share it surely must relate to whether it’s a reasonable definition? The former can’t be determined without the latter?