Why is it always men?

[bobcat2424]

I think IABU, I hope so but it seems as though every single news story, every horrible brutality; wars, murders, rape, abuse... in the very large part of it seems to be caused by men. Am I wrong to think this?

Research suggests that a least a sizable minority of women are also capable of violence. For example, in female same-sex relationships (so no men in the equation), there can be quite high rates of intimate partner violence. Not that this lets men off the hook of course.

Lesbian Intimate Partner Violence: Prevalence and Dynamics: Journal of Lesbian Studies: Vol 6, No 1 (tandfonline.com)

Intimate-Partner-Violence-in-Self-identified-Lesbians-a-Meta-analysis-of-its-Prevalence.pdf (researchgate.net)

I would've probs disagreed with you until the recent thread where a poster linked loads of studies showing that the difference between the sexes in perpetrating DV is minimal. Women were more likely to be injured (I'm guessing due to men's vastly greater physical strength) but they perpetrated just as often and were responsible for the majority of one sided DV.

However, crime stats always seem to show a very different picture, which would support the theory of men not reporting DV (which is mentioned a lot by the charity Mankind).

If you survey hundreds of thousands of people the results always seem to show women offending at similar levels to men. And, surprisingly, recent studies show that women are more likely to admit to being perpetrators of DV than men are to admit that they're victims, which defo seems to support the theory of men being reluctant to report.

The men are also products of a male dominated world so only the rancid men can make it to the top.

11%? Wow. Very nearly mostly women then🙄

I'm agog at the amount of (i assume women) posting sh*t defending men here. Like, seriously, wtaf? We know there are some women who kill. We know there are some women who perpetrate DV. But the figures speak for themselves. They are not to be argued with. It's insane to try and argue otherwise like!?!

Found the thread....these are the studies I mentioned. Defo paint a very different picture to the usual anecdata. I was a bit shocked tbf but you can't ignore the scale of some of them - I think one is still the biggest DV study ever conducted.

The theory that women perpetrate intimate partner violence at roughly similar rates as men has been termed "gender symmetry". The earliest empirical evidence of gender symmetry was presented in the 1975 U.S. National Family Violence Survey carried out by Murray A. Straus and Richard J. Gelles on a nationally representative sample of 2,146 "intact families". The survey found 11.6% of women and 12% of men had experienced some kind of intimate partner violence in the last twelve months, also 4.6% of men and 3.8% of women had experienced "severe" intimate partner violence.

Since 1975, numerous other empirical studies have found evidence of gender symmetry in intimate partner violence. For example, in the United States, the National Comorbidity Study of 1990-1992 found 18.4% of men and 17.4% of women had experienced minor intimate partner violence, and 5.5% of men and 6.5% of women had experienced severe intimate partner violence.[48][49]

In England and Wales, the 1995 "Home Office Research Study 191" found that in the twelve months prior to the survey, 4.2% of both men and woman between the ages of 16 and 59 had been assaulted by an intimate.[50]

The Canadian General Social Survey of 2000 found that from 1994 to 1999, 4% of men and 4% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 22% of men and 28% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 7% of men and 8% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[35]

The 2005 Canadian General Social Survey, looking at the years 1999–2004 found similar data; 4% of men and 3% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 16% of men and 21% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 6% of men and 7% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[36]

The 1975 National Family Violence Survey found that 27.7% of intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by men alone, 22.7% by women alone and 49.5% were bidirectional. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, resulting in almost identical data.[52]

The 1985 National Family Violence Survey found 25.9% of IPV cases perpetrated by men alone, 25.5% by women alone, and 48.6% were bidirectional.[53]

A study conducted in 2007 by Daniel J. Whitaker, Tadesse Haileyesus, Monica Swahn, and Linda S. Saltzman, of 11,370 heterosexual U.S. adults aged 18 to 28 found that 24% of all relationships had some violence. Of those relationships, 49.7% of them had reciprocal violence. In relationships without reciprocal violence, women committed 70% of all violence.

In 1997, Philip W. Cook conducted a study of 55,000 members of the United States Armed Forces, finding bidirectionality in 60-64% of intimate partner violence cases, as reported by both men and women.[55]

The 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health found that 49.7% of intimate partner violence cases were reciprocal and 50.3% were non-reciprocal. When data provided by men only was analyzed, 46.9% of cases were reported as reciprocal and 53.1% as non-reciprocal. When data provided by women only was analyzed, 51.3% of cases were reported as reciprocal and 49.7% as non-reciprocal. The overall data showed 70.7% of non-reciprocal intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by women only (74.9% when reported by men; 67.7% when reported by women) and 29.3% were perpetrated by men only (25.1% when reported by men; 32.3% when reported by women).[56]

The 2006 thirty-two nation International Dating Violence Study "revealed an overwhelming body of evidence that bidirectional violence is the predominant pattern of perpetration; and this ... indicates that the etiology of ipv is mostly parallel for men and women". The survey found for "any physical violence", a rate of 31.2%, of which 68.6% was bidirectional, 9.9% was perpetrated by men only, and 21.4% by women only. For severe assault, a rate of 10.8% was found, of which 54.8% was bidirectional, 15.7% perpetrated by men only, and 29.4% by women only.[57]

In 2000, John Archer conducted a meta-analysis of eighty-two IPV studies. He found that "women were slightly more likely than men to use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently. Men were more likely to inflict an injury, and overall, 62% of those injured by a partner were women."[58] By contrast, the U.S. Department of Justice finds that women make up 84% of spouse abuse victims and 86% of victims of abuse by a boyfriend or girlfriend.[59]

From 2010 to 2012, scholars of domestic violence from the U.S., Canada and the U.K. assembled The Partner Abuse State of Knowledge, a research database covering 1700 peer-reviewed studies, the largest of its kind. Among its findings:[63]"

• More women (23%) than men (19.3%) have been assaulted at least once in their lifetime.
• Rates of female-perpetrated violence are higher than male-perpetrated (28.3% vs. 21.6%).
• Male and female IPV are perpetrated from similar motives.
• Studies comparing men and women in the power/control motive have mixed results overall.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men#:~:text=The%20theory%20that%20women%20perpetrate,Straus%20and%20Richard%20J.

In 2000, John Archer conducted a meta-analysis of eighty-two IPV studies. He found that "women were slightly more likely than men to use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently. Men were more likely to inflict an injury, and overall, 62% of those injured by a partner were women."[58] By contrast, the U.S. Department of Justice finds that women make up 84% of spouse abuse victims and 86% of victims of abuse by a boyfriend or girlfriend.[59]

Something seems to be going on with the government figures. When you have eighty two DV studies contradicting them it's hard to ignore this. I don't know if it's because men don't report as much but something just doesn't add up, that's for sure!

Also, people are very quick to quote police stats in DV debates, but can we really trust them? I mean this is the same organisation that investigates people for saying humans can't change sex and which sometimes records male crimes as female perpetrated just because the bloke suddenly decides he feels like a woman!

I think mass scale surveys of the public are likely more indicative because (as people say on here) if somebody tells you who they are you should believe them.

So you agree that a male dominated world doesn't work well, if it can only produce rancid leaders.

Realistically, what chance have we ever got of creating anything remotely approaching a matriarchy without first getting men on our side? That's the thought I always come back to.

For all the brave posturing we see the fact is that division will never get us to a better situation. We need to actually work with men and that's unfortunately where a lot of feminism falls down for me if I'm completely honest, much as it pains me to say it.

@LadyTrunchbull "We need to actually work with men and that's unfortunately where a lot of feminism falls down for me if I'm completely honest, much as it pains me to say it."

Can you say more about this? Because it seems to me that before we can work with men, men have to show themselves willing to work at all.

I'm not going to say too much right now as I'm up for work at 5am unfortunately and had promised myself an early night (before I opened bloody mumsnet, doh).

Ultimately, a stalemate is little skin off men's noses as they're currently in the dominant position if you agree with most strands of feminism (I think it's ultimately more complex with a minority of men at the top and many many more pretty much at the very bottom and disregarded in a way that women sometimes aren't - e.g. homeless men).

I feel like a lot of feminists have found the hill they'll die on, but I don't really want to wage battle or die on a hill and I don't think either are a necessary martyrdom if one stops myopically focusing on the minority of bad men (who admittedly cause most of the issues) and instead try and engage with the good men and the majority who are kind of in the middle but could go either way.

I feel like most men (and now most young women according to the studies) kind of view feminism as a bit culty and extreme and many feminists seem to embrace this sort of elitism but really it's a fart in the wind and not doing much in the real world. GC feminists I feel may be another story (as in actually making change/influencing ) but that's another discussion.

The above is a massive oversimplification but it's largely how I feel. I don't really consider myself a feminist or feel particularly inclined to declare myself as Spartacus lol but I broadly share the written goals of feminism (which aren't how it often actually goes in terms of how it actually manifests itself).

I would be wary of trusting the statistics about women and men in prison. There have been many instances when males who identify as women are actually counted as women, thus pushing up the stats for violent and abusing women
where I live nearly 90 women have been murdered by men this year. There have been no instances of men being killed by women for years.
and all I can think when hearing about the latest atrocities is male violence.

I agree it's a concerning trend but all of the above studies predate the trans thing by a fair few years. 1700 studies contradicting our commonly accepted view of DV is not something to be brushed off lightly IMHO and anybody who would attempt to do so would make me a bit wary tbh.

In the previous thread posters were being extremely selective and pointing out that some of the studies were very old and had small sample sizes etc but they were conveniently ignoring the 32 nation one and the 1700 peer reviewed studies as well as the other big ones. I feel like it often becomes tit for tat tennis sadly and this doesn't really help.

Just making the point before all the man haters start.

Abusive men often claim to be the victim.

Abused women are also often gaslit into believing they are the abuser.

And a hell of a lot of women don't ever believe or accept they suffered abuse. Even on here I've seen many threads where women are going through abuse at the more extreme level of the scale and they ask "Is this abuse?"....or threads asking "was this abuse?" detailing historic abuse which took them years or even decades to question. I've had the same experience myself where it took me forever to realise, and have seen the same with friends.

I think the reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

Abusive/controlling men are definitely masters of gaslighting and convincing women that 'they asked for it'. It's common for abused women to make excuses for their abuser.

It's also common for abusers to try and reverse things (DARVO is it called?) and convince the woman that they're being abusive by standing up for themselves or asking the man to pull his weight etc.

However, in the more recent study I mentioned they literally asked "have you ever hit your partner?" It's not really an ambiguous question IMO. What they found was that the number of women claiming to have hit their partner was higher than the number of men that claimed to have been hit, which does seem to support the 'men under reporting' theory.

I mean, I can't see why women would lie about something that doesn't show them in a particularly good light so I'm inclined to believe them tbh.

It IS an ambiguous question though because some will hit in response to being driven to the point of a loss of self control due to the other persons abuse.
Some people are completely mentally and psychologically tortured to the point where they lose control, and treated in a way that could provoke the calmest ,kindest person to snap eventually.

As for women not lying about something that shows them in a good light, if women told the truth and a lot of men who participated in the study lie then it will look like women abuse more obviously, but a huge amount of men are in complete denial about the fact they have abused women. They wouldn't even admit it on an anonymous survey.

The objective truth is that 99% of violent crime nationally and globally is committed by those with XY chromosomes. It's how it is and how is has always been. We can try to rationalise or wish this away as part of our current modern agenda, but it is the truth.

the majority of women in the prison system are there because they have committed crimes of theft or violence, i.e. they are the very worst of womanhood

I am not sure being a thief makes you the very worst of womanhood.

There are far worse crimes, and thieves should not be in jail, but punished some other way.

I guess historically some those "thieves" were the sub-postmistresses who suffered miscarriages of justice as part of the Horizon scandal too.

I don't think this is new news........

No, Argentina did, by invading them. Thatcher decided to get them back.

Yes, this I have no doubt of. Males fighting with other males for resources as has happened in the animal kingdom for millions upon millions of years. We've all benefited from it in some way as our bloodlines would be extinct had out ancestors not fought for dominance/survival.

But specifically regarding the discussion around DV I'm not sure I agree with the default mumsnet stance. When you have academics analysing 1700 peer reviewed studies (or surveying 32 different countries) and concluding that the sexes are actually quite close in terms of perpetrating DV, I don't think you can just dismiss it away with anecdata and some sarky catchphrases.

It's only really crime stats that show men as being massively more likely to commit DV and these won't pick up the non reported cases like surveys do.

This is what somebody posted on the othet thread a week or so back. It's from the charity Mankind who are experts in DV.

• Half of male victims (49%) fail to tell anyone they are a victim of domestic abuse and are two and a half times less likely to tell anyone than female victims (19%).
• 11% of male victims (7.2% women) have considered taking their life due to partner abuse. The charity has seen an increase in calls regarding suicide ideation over the pandemic period and beyond.
• 66% of the men who call the ManKind Initiative helpline have never spoken to anyone before about the abuse they are suffering and 64% would not have called if the helpline was not anonymous.
• Only 4.7% of victims of domestic abuse being supporting by local domestic services are men according to SafeLives data. This highlights how few men are being supported for local domestic abuse services.

I agree that this male dominated world doesn't work well and that it is often rancid men and women who rise to the top.

The point I was trying to make that it is a mistake to be too hung up on sex/gender. The problem might lie elsewhere. Our system is obviously male dominated but it is also power and wealth dominated. I suspect that it is desire for power and wealth that leads to the rancid leaders and not the sex of the leader. Sadly women seem to be seduced and corrupted by power and wealth as completely as men are.

But I hope I'm wrong because there is no doubt that women are increasingly taking over and if that means we will have a better, fairer and happier future then I am all for it.

I'm not anti men in the slightest. I'm surrounded by wonderful men. I do think though that until relatively recently the power was completely in men's hands and they have continued to make a mess of the world. I'm sick of seeing men causing, fighting and supporting more wars and death. They all have one thing in common and that's their sex. I'd love to see what would happen if the world governments were 100% female. It'll never happen though, so the best we could hope for is a 50/50 split.