One-state solution ?

[Trianglesandcircles1]

Why does it seem like all the mainstream western politicians assume that the only acceptable solution for Palestine/Israel is a two-state solution?

Surely it would be better to have one state, controlled and run by the UN for at least 50 years before slow transition to democracy, with a completely secular constitution, i.e. total separation of religion and state. Then everyone could have religious freedom.

It should be called neither Israel nor Palestine. I suggest "The Holy Land" as the official name.

Why is a suggesting a one-state solution so frowned upon?

Yes, for example, Jewish people left Egypt in 1947/48 for Israel mainly but also UK/US because of the intimidation, threats and murder of the minority Jewish community in Cairo.

Israel is a tiny State surrounded by hostile Arab States. Every time Israel is close to a peace deal or is negotiating one, Palestinian terrorists attack or assassinate prominent leaders, e.g. history of Palestinians murdering or trying to Jordanian Kings. It prevents a normalisation of relations and, therefore, peace.

Not that many Arabs lived there either. When talking about such small numbers one being a bigger majority than the other means very little. People didn't want to live there it has no oil and was at the time not good farming land. There was very little there until the Jews started to develop the land.

The Jews built the first university on the land in 1909 and before that many other major developments and improvements to the farming land.

Population of pre-Mandate Palestine was 800k about 80k of whom were Jewish, the rest a mix of Turks, Bedouins, Muslim & Christian Arabs, & European ex-pats.

Over 500k of that initial 800k were Arabs who arrived between 1932 & 1944 attracted by the Yishuv's burgeoning finances.

Did you know that the original meaning of the word Palestine is "Invaders from a foreign country"? Which is why Arafat adopted the name for the Arabs in 1964 and made the flag in 1967. He said it was to further the Arab cause. Which he didn't hold back in saying was to wipe out the Jews!

"Palestinian protestors never had a problem with the latter group."

Except the Arabs did have a problem with living with the Jews before 1948!
For example the Safed looting 1834, Hebron massacre 1834, Attack on Safed 1838, Jaffa deportations 1917, Attack on Tel Hai 1920, Jaffa riots 1921, the riots 1929, the riots in 1936... But other than that, yes, life was awsome before jews had independence!

Which is why the UN decided the British Mandate needed to be split. The Arabs got the big bit that is now Jordan after they did a land grab during one of the wars. Not the Jews fault and nobody is crying for that to be given to Palestinians. Wonder why.....No Jews perhaps! The Jews got Israel.

Peace can only happen when everyone recognises the history of this conflict and stop all the falsehoods. The only thing that matters is regular citizens on both sides that live there currently. The distortion of history and pretending religious issues around co existence even with non extremists don't exists helps nobody.

Indeed! My own grandparents were ethnically cleansed from Hebron in 1929. They were lucky- others were massacred in ways reminiscent of Hamas today

Yes but Jews are also a people, not just a religion. The Nazis made that one very clear too, you couldn't convert away your jewishness.

Yes, the concentration camp of Gaza. Just like Bergen-Belsen. Well known that the Jews there had an obesity crisis (https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-020-08966-1) and were able to build well equipped tunnels through which to attack the Germans. It's a well known anti semitic trope to bring in holocaust terminology. Serves to both exaggerate the situation and to minimise the horrors of the holocaust plus assuage guilt (see, you're no better....)

You also forget there's a border with Egypt.

Also, perhaps Hamas, the elected government of Gaza, should have built bomb sheltees, desalination plants and stockpiled food with all the resources they have to build tunnels and attack israel. Even now, they are still firing rockets into Israel.

It is tragic and sad but Hamas is the one responsible and they see Palestinian lives as expendable for the greater good. In fact, the more casualties the better, win win.

Indeed! My own grandparents were ethnically cleansed from Hebron in 1929. They were lucky- others were massacred in ways reminiscent of Hamas today

One of the things that instantly struck me about the reset pogrom was how similar in brutality it was to ones before 1948!

I remember reading about and seeing photos of some pogroms before 1948 when I was researching the subject a few years ago. The most horrific thing. Guts cut out of people whilst still alive. People set on fire. The raping of men and women. Burning down villages that had been there for hundreds of years.

Have the Uk, US, etc etc tried to exterminate Jews?

As an israeli citizen, I don't want one state solution.

Certainly its totally insane to suggest israel needs to be un run, maybe the Palestinians who rely on unrwa for schools and hospitals but no way ever in the world would israel cede sovereignty to the un and rely on them to protect us .

Israel is a well functioning, thriving and democratic state. Yes, its flawed and there are problems but its probably the best place in the middle east to live if you're a woman, gay, secular or a minority of any kind. Or you just don't agree with the government.

Personally I wouldn't be opposed to a binational state but if canada and Belgium are struggling, not sure how a Western Liberal democratic and advanced society could be in the same nation as Palestinians given the massive cultural differences and make it work.

The two state solution is the only feasible option, no matter how far it seems right now.

You can't understand why Jews want their own country and self determination? The movement started before the holocaust of course but after the holocaust it became strikingly clear that Jews can't rely on anyone but themselves to save themselves.

I thought this too. There were pogroms for a few centuries before 1948 weren't there? Horrific.

Yeah, you know the whole expulsion of Jews from England thing? Massacres at York and Norwich? That.

One of the things about some people's attitudes to this is how easily they dismiss the right of Jews to have a connection to their homeland. No group of people have a more ancient connection to any land on earth to these people - and they have suffered genocide and diaspora for millennia. I can't understand how any reasonable person could deny their rights to be in this place.

This is the land of King David. A cherished symbol of a shared cultural, religious, and historical heritage, rooted in ancient scripture, archaeology, architecture - and upheld by generations of tradition. These people have a collective memory of the land they belonged in and that's understandable to humanity.

I can't imagine the left denying the rights of any other indigenous people to live freely and equally in the land of their forefathers. It's so odd to me!

There were not really any Jews in Britain until after 1066. After that, there were several pogrums.

Then in 1290 Edward I expelled us all from England and we weren't officially allowed back in until the mid-17th century under Oliver Cromwell.

We were allowed in law to become British citizens in 1753 and it was repealed a year later because the public opposed it and didn't want us.

So it wasn't until the 19th century we gained civil rights in Britain. Even then we were not much liked and it was only really post Holocaust that we were made really accepted member of British Society.

Yes, and it's also the land of the King of the Jews - Jesus. Irrespective of whether you believe he was the Son Of God, he existed as a man.

Jewish people certainly have a long history in Israel before exile.

People think of the Jews as being Colonialists and Palestinians as natives. Powerful political ideology.

Reality is very different. This is two nations and one piece of land.

@Meshigenus are you actually kidding me right now. Israhell just bombed a hospital in the middle of Gaza city. They just killed 500 people. Injured, the I’ll, the babies in ICU! Yesterday they bombed the only way Egypt could get aid into the country and foreign civilians - yes foreign civilians stuck in Gaza - they are still stuck there. For the 4th time. It’s not Egypt that won’t open its border it’s Israel that won’t let any, ANY aid in. A family of a journalist was killed - 14 members of her family killed! No one is exaggerating the situation as u put it - it’s the truth that you are too blind to see.

1.1 million displaced people, 1 child dying - not dying sorry being murdered every 15 minutes. These are not exaggerations these are facts. Shame on everyone that puts the blame solely on Hamas, because it’s so easy to do. Shame on everyone that says Israel has a right to defend itself but palestine doesn’t. shame on everyone that thinks this is okay. Shame on everyone that is okay with defenceless people being killed by Israel who has an army, weapons, backing of the west, media that will spread its fake news such as the beheading of 40 babies, which didn’t happen. And shame on everyone that justifies what is happening. It is a genocide. It is the ethnic cleansing of people that the Israeli government calls ‘human animals. Look it up! And the Jewish chronicles called it a genocide as well. Look it up.

Israel has dropped bombs the equivalent of a quarter of a nuclear bomb in the last 10 days. They routinely hold Palestinians even before this happens in prison without charge for decades. They control the water, food, electricity, everything and that is why they have been able to stop all of these things.

And before being expelled from England for 360 years the Jews weren't allowed to own land and couldn't practice many trades or professions. Jewish people weren't able to pass money on to family upon death. Everything went to the Treasury.

We also made Jews wear a symbol to identify them.

But one of the few things Jews were allowed to do was to lend money with interest. Usury was considered a sin by the Catholic Church and was illegal for Christians.

Every transaction made by Jewish people was monitored though and the Crown took a 10% cut. English Jewry made a lot of money for the English monarchy. And of course being money lenders/bankers later became an antisemitic trope even though Jewish people didn't have that much choice.

This is the bit that I actually struggle with. Indigenous peoples across the world have been displaced from their traditional homelands, often more recently than the Jews were, and I don’t think their ‘right’ to re-take possession of some or all of those lands (particularly to form indigenous-majority states) are widely accepted on the left or right. Perhaps they should be but it doesn’t seem to be a part of current mainstream discourse.

I also generally struggle with the idea that because your ancient ancestors lived somewhere, you have a current right to occupy that same land (particularly at the expense of any other inhabitants). I don’t know that I refute the notion entirely (particularly because I do find it easier to sympathize if we’re talking 1 or 2 generations and I don’t know when or if a ‘cut off’ becomes justified) but I’m not persuaded either.

If the current occupants of North America (of non-indigenous descent) were forced off the lands (either through violence or a natural disaster) and not withstanding the moral need to accept refugees, would those displaced people have a ‘right’ to return to whatever countries, around the world, they can establish a historic connection to? Would the answer be affected by whether their ancestors moved to North America voluntarily or not? Would they have a ‘right’ to form new states within those countries if they felt that circumstances required?

Although I have some difficulty with the concept of a historic or religiously rooted right to re-occupy and have jurisdiction over ancestral lands, I do, however, find it much easier to understand why the formation and preservation of a Jewish state was deemed essential to ensure the safety and liberty of Jewish people and that, realistically, there was only a very limited number of geographical places where the formation of that state would be accepted by the UN and others.

To re-visit my North American exodus example, even if those fleeing didn’t have a ‘right’ to reoccupy ancestral lands, you could certainly understand why they would attempt to re-settle there (or somewhere) on the basis that they, their family and community, need to have a place to safely and freely live. And that’s before you add in centuries of persecution and genocide.

I guess that’s all to say that, in response to your ‘I can’t understand how any reasonable person could deny their rights to be in this place’ - while I am actively reading Jewish perspectives on the topic and my thoughts remain half-formed, I currently find it far easier to frame and relate to the topic through the lens of human needs, wants and circumstances rather than the weighing of competing historic and/or religious-based occupation rights.

They were told to evacuate for 2 days ago , they refuse because they do as Hamas tell them . Hamas sees those children as martyrs so the west pity them and sends more money that then Hamas invests on bombs and living a lavish life in Qatar and Tunisia ( check where most of the Hamas leadership lives ) . Hamas tells women to have many children so they can fight against the west and Israel , why do you think Palestine has so many children when the logic would be they have have less children since they are crowded and have no food or water ? Why do you think they have no food or water ? Palestine had over 22 billions in aid they should have water and electricity , the money never gets where it needs to go .
so yes I pity those children , I’m willing to bet everyone on this thread shed a tear watching those images and wants ago scope them away from that awful hell , but you are putting the majority of the guilt on he wrong people . I’m no fan of the current Israeli government either but the majority of the blame is on Hamas ,
hamas has over one million people supporting it in Palestine . Hamas will never accept Israel doesn’t mater if Israel was one square mile , because Islam sees Jews as slaves and less than human .
Israel has a right to existe , they are a modern first world country with great quality of life . Who treats their children and women well , who has great medical facilities , whose children are well educated and out first .
I honestly wonder how many people here have been to both Israel and Palestine . I have several times . What strikes me the most is when crossing between them the Israeli side has no children throwing rocks or following you around . Children are in school or playing , not being used to start conflict . As soon as you get to Palestine that’s all you see children gossiping , children being used to spread hate .
And before anyone tell me I have a biased view , I’m neither Jew or Christian or Muslim , in fact I have no religious affiliation whatsoever .
Palestine will never be a lawful nation while they teach their children to be jihadists and follow Hamas commands , Palestine needs to accept Israel is not going anywhere and accept they need outside help to support them a few decades this being the UN or other non Arab nations ( as they all have interest in perpetuate the conflict ) , to educate children away from being prepared to be martyrs and freedom fighter , away from hate , focused on children and women’s rights and developing infrastructure to support a population .
And I doubt there will be a ceasefire anything soon unless hostages are return , if they are even alive .

This is the bit that I actually struggle with. Indigenous peoples across the world have been displaced from their traditional homelands, often more recently than the Jews were, and I don’t think their ‘right’ to re-take possession of some or all of those lands (particularly to form indigenous-majority states) are widely accepted on the left or right. Perhaps they should be but it doesn’t seem to be a part of current mainstream discourse

This ignores a lot of the unique circumstances surrounding this. If, for example, you are an indigenous Native American, you can live there with the same rights and protections as any other American. That is not the case here.

So morally speaking, people have to choose between three options here:

a) Jews must accept the fact that Muslims dominate the entire region, largely through centuries of violence and oppression - and thus they are now the prevalent group who don't want Jews there. So Jews should just slink off, forget their 3000 year connection to their homeland and let the bullies have it all (and call this "peace")

or

b) Jews are allowed to live there, but have to live under the law / suppression of the dominant group who have taken over and who do not believe in equal rights for Jews (or many other groups). Therefore living in their rightful homeland means Jews must accept legal and cultural ways of living that are completely at odds with their own beliefs as well as laws which subjugate them to be second class citizens.

or

c) Jews are allowed to live there, self governed in equality and in accordance with their own beliefs, and Muslims must accept they have 99.98% of the land and Jews have 0.02%

To me, c seems like the only reasonable option. They have taken option c, and moreover have given millions of Muslims freedom to stay living in Israel (which is something no Muslim countries have done for Jews.

People forget this so easily.

Are you actually kidding me right now. HAMAS just bombed a hospital in the middle of Gaza City....................

It just mentioned on the news 'Hamas states it would never bomb a hospital' - yeah, but it does shoot down innocent music festival attendees, so to get the Israelis into more trouble I think they would bomb a hospital. It has also had the effect of stopping Biden's visit to the Middle East, when Hamas's previous behaviour stopped the liasing between Saudi and Israel (possibly the reason for the attacks).
I doubt we'll ever know for sure who is to blame for the bombing but it looks like it is Israel but I wouldn't put anything past Hamas.

@LuisVitton Israel is to blame for the bombing. Just like they killed that journalist a couple of years ago then denied it only to admit to doing it months later. Hamas doesn’t have the capacity to take out a hospital like that with rockets. It was a bomb that hit it, not a misfired rocket. Israel’s digital spokesperson admitted to it only to delete his tweet a few minutes later after an uproar and now they are denying it and the west is loping up this narrative. They literally gave warning to hospitals in Palestine to evacuate in the last week, but the Drs are not going to leave their patients. Where were the people in ICU going to go, and even if they did leave where would they go Israel is carpet bombing and carrying out ethnic cleansing, no where is safe. I’m sure once they’ve committed mass genocide on the entire people of Palestine and no one is left they’ll just come out and say it was Hamas’s fault for starting it, we just took revenge. Revenge and genocide are too different things. They literally called the children of Israel children of light and children of Palestine children of dark. They think they are human animals. Literally right before the world they are dehumanising the people of Palestine, conducting collective punishment and so many other international war crimes and no one says anything. I’m yet to hear Sunak or starmer express condolences for the lives lost last night, they don’t have to blame anyone they could just say it’s terrible but no they have their heads buried up Israel’s backside.

People really should wait for things to be investigated and confirmed by trust worthy sources.

No idea who was responsible both have reasons to do it. I can think of four different reasons for why it happened. That is two that Israel did it and two that Hamas did it. Plus Israel can sometimes be misleading with the truth like most governments. Hamas is known for being untrustworthy with their information too.

"Basim Naim, head of international relations for the terrorist group, insisted that their gunmen were “keen to avoid harming civilians” and targeted only military bases and compounds in response to Israel “suffocating the people of Gaza for more than 17 years”.
Other Hamas officials went as far as to claim the 260 partygoers who were massacred at an open-air rave festival last Saturday may have been mistaken for “resting” soldiers. In another attempt at damage-control, Hamas released videos earlier this week which appear to show terrorists comforting Israeli children at the captured kibbutzim"

Anyone that thinks they can believe a Hamas media release is in la la land. Anyone that believes a government never lies is in la la land. Both often manipulate and both have a narrative they wish you to believe.

The difference between the two currently is that one is a terrorist group that has caused their people to be put in a war zone. That were becoming a annoying nuisance to most the countries that had previously supported them. The other is a government that cocked up home security and are now trying to make sure the counties around them and the terrorist groups see they are not weak. Therefore stop these counties and gr thinking it is possible to attack them without consequences.

Both suck at information releases and I never automatically believe either.

The hospital wasn't "taken out" and the building is still standing, so why are you talking as though it has been...flattened? 🤔

One of the weapons experts BBC Verify spoke to pointed out there's no crater or anything consistent with an Israeli airstrike.

To date, there is no independent verification of responsibility. Its Hamas claims, Israeli counter-claims and PIJ counter counter-claim with accusation at the moment.

You're running a lot different things into one another here. 🤷‍♂️

And the guy who apparently tweeted, Hananya Naftali, is NOT the digital spokesperson and has no insider information. So he tweeted that israel attacked hamas at the hospital which was based on nothing. That's apparently now "proof" that it was israel.
Who has a vested interested in high casualty numbers? Hamas!