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Original poster

One-state solution ?

149 replies

Trianglesandcircles1 · 14/10/2023 20:06

Why does it seem like all the mainstream western politicians assume that the only acceptable solution for Palestine/Israel is a two-state solution?

Surely it would be better to have one state, controlled and run by the UN for at least 50 years before slow transition to democracy, with a completely secular constitution, i.e. total separation of religion and state. Then everyone could have religious freedom.

It should be called neither Israel nor Palestine. I suggest "The Holy Land" as the official name.

Why is a suggesting a one-state solution so frowned upon?

OP posts:
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Original poster
Trianglesandcircles1 · 14/10/2023 21:57

MCOut · 14/10/2023 21:52

It’s not really helpful to view it as religious, for the most part with the exception of a the Jerusalem issue this is an issue between two nations of people. Most states are nation states where the majority form one congruent identity, there maybe variations but it’s something they all share. For example, Americans largely share an American identity. There are African-American, Asian-Americans, Irish Americans, etc but they all buy into Americaness.

A cohesive multicultural society isn’t natural as we’ve seen it takes work, compromise, empathy and there has to be some level of buy in. I can’t speak for either of the groups of people in this conflict but I imagine a majority of Jewish Israelis will not want this because in a unified state they would be the minority and therefore, their norms would be deprioritised. Additionally, I think we should be honest and accept that these two populations are hostile to each other and the risk of violence would be high. I don’t think, for example, there would be an appetite for a restorative justice approach like SA for example.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

So if neither the Palestinians nor Israelis are prepared to accept or work for a multi-ethnic state, and if neither a two-state nor a one-state solution can be imposed from the outside by any international body, then what is the likely prognosis?

OP posts:
BeginningToLookALotLike · 14/10/2023 22:00

My genes mean that I am in a minority in my country. It affected me a bit as a child (teasing and taunts), but it is just not an issue now.

This really isn't the same thing as the 2000 year history of the Jewish people before Israel.

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 14/10/2023 22:00

UpperLowerMiddleClass · 14/10/2023 21:39

And I’m fucking sick of Israelis being treated and talked about in a way that would be completely unacceptable if it was any other nationality.

Imagine you live in the UK and someone kills your family because they think the government’s policies towards migrants, or disabled people, are cruel, inhumane and illegal. Would that feel logical or in any way fair to you? Of course it wouldn’t.

But that’s basically what’s happened to civilians in Israel. And to take the analogy one step further - the response to those bereaved families has been the equivalent of “yes it’s awful what happened to your family, but the Tories’ policies towards migrants has been absolutely shocking”.

Show quote history

If the Tories kept them in an open-air prison, and repeatedly fired missiles into that prison, then I would feel as I do now. Hamas, no, I don’t support, the same as any terrorist organisation. But this scorched earth obliteration and completely indiscriminate mass killing - no, that is not ok. Repeating others’ horrific and appalling mistakes is not ok. This is overkill, and is being allowed because any criticism of the actions is ‘anti-Semitic’.

otnot · 14/10/2023 22:01

UpperLowerMiddleClass · 14/10/2023 21:39

And I’m fucking sick of Israelis being treated and talked about in a way that would be completely unacceptable if it was any other nationality.

Imagine you live in the UK and someone kills your family because they think the government’s policies towards migrants, or disabled people, are cruel, inhumane and illegal. Would that feel logical or in any way fair to you? Of course it wouldn’t.

But that’s basically what’s happened to civilians in Israel. And to take the analogy one step further - the response to those bereaved families has been the equivalent of “yes it’s awful what happened to your family, but the Tories’ policies towards migrants has been absolutely shocking”.

Show quote history

And then hordes of people organise a march where they laugh and cheer and let off fireworks, claiming it's just because they really, really hate the Tories' migrant policy but they are obviously of course definitely really sorry about what happened to your family and obviously of course definitely condemn the perpetrators...

...and you can't even hold a vigil for your family because it would be too dangerous and even the government couldn't / wouldn't keep you safe.

SnowflakeCity · 14/10/2023 22:03

Imagine you live in the UK and someone kills your family because they think the government’s policies towards migrants, or disabled people, are cruel, inhumane and illegal. Would that feel logical or in any way fair to you? Of course it wouldn’t.

I think it important to state that this is not what happened though. There is no 'think' about it is there? Israel breaks international humanitarian laws, they enforce mass punishments and have been for years. It isn't really something that a few people 'think' it is something that everyone has known and ignored for years. You can condemn what Hamas have done whilst acknowledging what Israel have and continue to do. One doesn't take away from the other.

Original poster
Trianglesandcircles1 · 14/10/2023 22:04

BeginningToLookALotLike · 14/10/2023 22:00

My genes mean that I am in a minority in my country. It affected me a bit as a child (teasing and taunts), but it is just not an issue now.

This really isn't the same thing as the 2000 year history of the Jewish people before Israel.

I didn't say it was. I was just responding to a question someone asked me.

OP posts:
NuffSaidSam · 14/10/2023 22:05

UpperLowerMiddleClass · 14/10/2023 21:39

And I’m fucking sick of Israelis being treated and talked about in a way that would be completely unacceptable if it was any other nationality.

Imagine you live in the UK and someone kills your family because they think the government’s policies towards migrants, or disabled people, are cruel, inhumane and illegal. Would that feel logical or in any way fair to you? Of course it wouldn’t.

But that’s basically what’s happened to civilians in Israel. And to take the analogy one step further - the response to those bereaved families has been the equivalent of “yes it’s awful what happened to your family, but the Tories’ policies towards migrants has been absolutely shocking”.

Show quote history

And so the Tories cut off the power, water, food and medical supplies to everyone in killers home town. Then they start slaughtering women, children, babies.

And you're claiming we'd all think that was fine because no-one involved is Jewish? Do you really believe that?

IveHadItUpToHere · 14/10/2023 22:12

I think the Palestinian people and the Israeli people are willing to work for peace. We have friends and family in both places, and they are supportive of a two-party state and want to work for peace. The problem that Palestine has - is how to remove Hamas (when it has suited various other countries to embolden, fund and give Hamas a place at the table despite most Palestinians not supporting them). And the problem that Israel has is how to remove Netanyahu and replace him with a moderate who is committed to peace.

Pollyputhekettleon · 14/10/2023 22:14

IveHadItUpToHere · 14/10/2023 22:12

I think the Palestinian people and the Israeli people are willing to work for peace. We have friends and family in both places, and they are supportive of a two-party state and want to work for peace. The problem that Palestine has - is how to remove Hamas (when it has suited various other countries to embolden, fund and give Hamas a place at the table despite most Palestinians not supporting them). And the problem that Israel has is how to remove Netanyahu and replace him with a moderate who is committed to peace.

People have posted loads of opinion polls on here showing that many, if not most, Gazans do support Hamas, or other jihadist groups. Your family and friends there are not representative.

SnowflakeCity · 14/10/2023 22:15

NuffSaidSam · 14/10/2023 22:05

And so the Tories cut off the power, water, food and medical supplies to everyone in killers home town. Then they start slaughtering women, children, babies.

And you're claiming we'd all think that was fine because no-one involved is Jewish? Do you really believe that?

Show quote history

Exactly. People pretending that keeping 2.2 million people in an open air prison and that committing apartheid is the same as something like the Tories cutting benefits for disabled people is not helping anyone. Can you imagine the UK in 2023 doing this? For years and years and years. Everybody just going about their lives while next door 2.2million people are caged and suffering? It is really disingenuous and downplays really serious breaches of human rights.

Original poster
Trianglesandcircles1 · 14/10/2023 22:20

This thread is getting a bit off topic. There are other threads re-hashing all these talking points.
I wanted to talk about potential political solutions, specifically the one-state solution.

From the discussion so far, it seems like there is no political solution.
Perhaps the bloodshed will continue until climate change means the entire Middle-East is just about uninhabitable.

OP posts:
MCOut · 14/10/2023 22:22

@Trianglesandcircles1 No clue. It’s de facto one state now to be honest. I do agree with you that there needs to be an international armed presence much as that wouldn’t go down very well. I don’t think it could be a UN force though, maybe US but I doubt they would do that. They’d get removed voted out of office. I don’t think IDF should be administering Palestine at the very least.

kopitiamgal · 14/10/2023 22:23

Alstroemeria123 · 14/10/2023 20:10

That proposal would mean Jewish people have no option to live in a Jewish state, which seems somewhat unfair as every other major religion has multiple options for that.

I don’t think Israel stops people living there from following other religions anyway, does it?

I have news for you Judaism isn't even a major religion if you count number of followers. Christanity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism are the big 4.
Judaism falls into a similar category as other such as Sikhism who don't have their own state!

Snugglemonkey · 14/10/2023 22:23

Trianglesandcircles1 · 14/10/2023 21:57

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

So if neither the Palestinians nor Israelis are prepared to accept or work for a multi-ethnic state, and if neither a two-state nor a one-state solution can be imposed from the outside by any international body, then what is the likely prognosis?

Show quote history

Sadly, a poor one. This is not going to be resolved satisfactorily, or any time soon.

armchairactivist1 · 14/10/2023 22:26

@SnowflakeCity do you also accuse Egypt of making Gaza into an open air prison? Since they also have closed borders with them

IveHadItUpToHere · 14/10/2023 22:28

Pollyputhekettleon · 14/10/2023 22:14

People have posted loads of opinion polls on here showing that many, if not most, Gazans do support Hamas, or other jihadist groups. Your family and friends there are not representative.

Show quote history

Polls shared on social media in a time of conflict - when certain political agendas and narratives are being firmly pushed to justify breaches of international law - are not representative. You know that. And if you don't, then you can easily check BBC veritas or articles/research from the UN, or statements from other countries (including Spain, Ireland, Scotland) that directly contradict your 'opinion polls'.

Perhaps you're unaware that many political parties use opinion polls to set an agenda - not to reflect reality. But I think you do know that. Posts, polls, videos and photos have all been identified as spreading deliberate misinformation and disinformation. You would be better to base your views on the opinions of impartial experts, academics, and international governments. Or you could think that people living and working in country know more than social media bullshitters.

Pollyputhekettleon · 14/10/2023 22:32

IveHadItUpToHere · 14/10/2023 22:28

Polls shared on social media in a time of conflict - when certain political agendas and narratives are being firmly pushed to justify breaches of international law - are not representative. You know that. And if you don't, then you can easily check BBC veritas or articles/research from the UN, or statements from other countries (including Spain, Ireland, Scotland) that directly contradict your 'opinion polls'.

Perhaps you're unaware that many political parties use opinion polls to set an agenda - not to reflect reality. But I think you do know that. Posts, polls, videos and photos have all been identified as spreading deliberate misinformation and disinformation. You would be better to base your views on the opinions of impartial experts, academics, and international governments. Or you could think that people living and working in country know more than social media bullshitters.

Show quote history

They were not polls 'shared on social media' by which I presume you mean polls actually conducted on social media. The place has been a 'time of conflict' for millennia. I have no idea why you're talking about social media. Presumably you haven't actually seen the posts here where people have linked to the opinion polls in question. I'm not going to go find them, you should have seen them already if you're going to comment about what Gazans do or don't believe.

And why are you demanding I defer to some class of experts when you used your family and friends as a source of information about how all Gazans feel?

Schoolappeal1 · 14/10/2023 22:34

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 14/10/2023 22:00

If the Tories kept them in an open-air prison, and repeatedly fired missiles into that prison, then I would feel as I do now. Hamas, no, I don’t support, the same as any terrorist organisation. But this scorched earth obliteration and completely indiscriminate mass killing - no, that is not ok. Repeating others’ horrific and appalling mistakes is not ok. This is overkill, and is being allowed because any criticism of the actions is ‘anti-Semitic’.

Show quote history

@UpperLowerMiddleClass what you’ve said is actually what Israel does to Palestinians every single day. Not just now, but every day. Even before this last week over 200 people have been killed at the hands of Israel. People are held captive in prison for decades without charge, beaten, tortured and why just because they are Palestinians. Israel don’t discriminate against Palestinians based on religion they do this to both Muslim and Christian’s - why because they are Palestinians.

whats your response to what is happening right now? Is it okay for over 2000 Palestinians to be killed, carpet bombed, forced to flee their homes, killed on the way, no way out of the Gaza because one) they won’t ever be allowed to return and 2) because the borders are closed.

Israelis committing genocide. Netanyahu has open declared this is just the beginning. It’s genocide being supported by western government and the media.

fluffylock · 14/10/2023 22:35

@Pollyputhekettleon they haven't had any political elections in Gaza since Hamas came to power in 2006 and opposition members of Fatah have been maimed or murdered so I would imagine the majority of citizens would feel too scared and intimidated to voice any dissent towards them

Beyondshock · 14/10/2023 22:44

OP you make an excellent point. A two state solution is never ever coming to fruition. Especially since the Israelis keep taking more and more land. If zionists believe that every Jew has a right to live in Israel…there’s no room for Palestinians. And we’ll be seeing it now…they are trying to clear gaza…I don’t think it’ll be long before we see Jews from Brooklyn or Sydney or London moving into settler colonies in Gaza city

Beyondshock · 14/10/2023 22:46

Also, when Jewish people were fleeing Europe, Palestinians were happy to accept them. They were welcomed. There were muslims Christian’s and Jewish people living together. It was the one state solution you describe. The Palestinians were ok as long as they got their right.

SnowflakeCity · 14/10/2023 22:46

armchairactivist1 · 14/10/2023 22:26

@SnowflakeCity do you also accuse Egypt of making Gaza into an open air prison? Since they also have closed borders with them

Why? Would that make Israels crimes against humanity better in your eyes? What exactly are you trying to say here? Are you denying Israels crimes or are you justifying? As far as I am aware this isn't a conversation about Egypt. Egypt commits their own crimes against humanity, this one is Israels. Both countries are awful and inhumane. Does that make you feel better?

LeefsPrings · 14/10/2023 23:00

I just wish people would stop killing one another in the name of religion, politics, borders, revenge, whatever.

I just want it to stop.

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 14/10/2023 23:03

LeefsPrings · 14/10/2023 23:00

I just wish people would stop killing one another in the name of religion, politics, borders, revenge, whatever.

I just want it to stop.

This, exactly this.

CoffeeTeaCoffee · 14/10/2023 23:04

underneaththeash · 14/10/2023 20:23

That sort of happens in Jerusalem already. Everyone has bits. And it works but it’s a bit fragile.
but why on earth would Isreal want to share land or power with terrorists? You can’t reason with people like that. Jewish people have lived in Israel for centuries, they didn’t just move in after the Second World War.

They lived in Palestine not Israel...