One-state solution ?

[Trianglesandcircles1]

Why does it seem like all the mainstream western politicians assume that the only acceptable solution for Palestine/Israel is a two-state solution?

Surely it would be better to have one state, controlled and run by the UN for at least 50 years before slow transition to democracy, with a completely secular constitution, i.e. total separation of religion and state. Then everyone could have religious freedom.

It should be called neither Israel nor Palestine. I suggest "The Holy Land" as the official name.

Why is a suggesting a one-state solution so frowned upon?

Palestine has never been a country , it’s a region . And it’s not a pretty country , just like his other Arab neighbors human rights are non existent , women are abused and quality of life is very low , comparing them to the modern lodge of Israel is ridiculous

Except Palestine was never a country

A state run by the UN? I’ve heard it all now.

Not sure why people place so much faith and expectation of competence on the UN. The UN is an elephants graveyard. A job creation scheme for nepotistic political cronies who were not smart enough to make it in domestic politics. Basically all the the thickos get sent there to be diplomats when they can’t be appointed at home.

On the practical side, just some of UN’s heroic achievements include, having the peacekeepers standing aside and watching 800k Tutsis get wiped out within 2 months in Rwanda, watching 7000 men and boys being massacred in Bosnia, standing by while Rohingyas were burned inside their own houses in villages in Myanmar. I could go on.

Well done OP on coming up with a solution.

Not sure why everyone takes such delight in rubbishing any ideas. Yet have zero solutions

The Queen met IRA killers -given time anything could happen.

Would Palestinian women be allowed outside outside without a male guardian, and have to dress according to Islamic law under a one state solution?

You wouldn't attempt to change religious beliefs if it only affected that religion.

In that case, would Israeli women be safe around people with those beliefs?

Because for centuries the Jews have been persecuted & murdered for being Jewish. They want a place to feel safe and history has shown they are never safe in other countries. Its not rocket science.

I agree that it should be a properly secular state without any religious affiliations. Most people from persecuted minorities or major religions do not have a state solely for them. Have you ever heard about a country where having a Romani or Sikh relation automatically gives you citizenship? It is crazy. The issue comes in when, firstly, as far as I know, the UN has never run a country. Secondly, neither faction wants that but also they have ended up in a situation where they don't want a two state solution either. And finally it may end up with surrounding demanding their land back. The other solution I see is something similar to India. You have a secular state but when it comes to personal family laws, eg divorce and marriage. I agree it's a mess but it would please very religious people on both sides.

Nope, a minority of Jewish people were there for centuries. The majority came after the Second World War. Palestinian protestors never had a problem with the latter group.

@LemonyTicket
I wasn't minimising. That is why I put "expelled" in inverted commas, because it is a euphemism. And why I commented on history being full of truly dreadful atrocities.

The Jewish people are mistaken in thinking that having a state run by Jews will keep them safe - just look at the reality on the ground.
It might have worked if there was a totally uninhabited yet perfectly fertile and inhabitable area for Jews to move to, but there is no such place on earth.

Regardless of history, Jewish people need to realise that there best chance of living in peace and safety is in a secular, multi-ethnic state with religious freedom for all.

The same goes for the Palestinian people - they need to recognise that Jewish, Christian, and all other people should be allowed to live in religious freedom in a secular state.

However, as another poster pointed out up thread, Islamic countries don't have the Western approach or mindset to accept secularism or multi-culturalism. So hoping for a peaceful Jewish state in an area that has been Islamic for centuries was a bit of a non-starter.

I can see why neither a one-state nor a two-state solution will work. I don't think there is a solution.

@Trianglesandcircles1 I'm afraid you clearly don't understand the politics of the situation in the Middle East.

Here's the reality:

"A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews."

So, more Israelis (30%) are willing to share ownership with Palestinians, but FEWER Palestinians (7%) are willing to do so with Israelis.

It should be obvious to anyone that you cannot impose a political settlement on peoples without majority support as it will simply not work. The next two pieces of information is interesting:

"...both publics still prefer two states to any other democratic framework for resolving the conflict."

And:

".... a majority of Palestinians reject four proposed confidence building measures while a majority of Israelis accepts half of them."

www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928

As for the United Nations, not only is the organisation ill-equipped to govern a region but it's blue hat army will become the focus of sustained, continuous attack. Especially from Hamas who have an Islamic Jihadist martyr ideology so will have no hesitation in carrying out terrorist attacks on the UN.

Since Israel Defense Forces pulled out of Gaza in 2005, Hamas has been able to increase their weapons capabilities, stockpiles, local population recruitment (10,000 in 1990 to 40,000 in 2023) and local Gazan population support.

The problem is NOT just a political one. It is also a National Security problem. Yet a political solution cannot be successfully negotiated until a terrorist group is defeated since they argue that a political settlement is another way for a government to shore up its crumbling rule, that's their perspective. They think they smell victory and so will push on in the belief they can achieve it.

So, I'm afraid a number of people in the thread are pretty naive of the actual complexity of the problem as well as its scale.

Fatah has its own terrorist wing - Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Attached is their badge.

Note the grenade and two crossed assault rifles depicted.

Fatah called off the 2021 election because polls indicated Hamas would defeat them in humiliating fashion. Two-thirds of Palestinians opposed Abbas cancelling those elections.

Some reading:

ecfr.eu/article/cancellation-costs-abbas-and-palestinian-democracy?amp=

www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-04-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/president-mahmoud-abbas-has-destroyed-the-palestinian-national-movement/00000187-7a26-dc6c-a5ff-7f77277e0000

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/06/palestinian-authority-israel-west-bank-security-cooperation-suspended-mahmoud-abbas

Forgot to attach Fatah badge.

Yet a political solution cannot be successfully negotiated until a terrorist group is defeated

That's not how terrorism works. You can't fight a terrorist ideology in the same way that you fight an army.
Add in a cult of martyrdom, and you have a situation whereby every military action you take just increases the numbers and dedication of your enemy.

There is no military solution to terrorism.

I'm afraid it is YOU who doesn't understand terrorist ideology because it is possible to undermine, discredit and....yes....defeat ideology.

But the first thing to do before the ideology can be undermined, discredited and defeated is to militarily defeat a terrorist group.

The Americans made a huge mistake in Afghanistan in that they defeated the Taliban militarily, but absolutely failed to deal with their ideology.

Ideology is oxygen to terrorist groups globally. This means they must be infiltrated and their members in significant positions turned into informers so that terrorist operations can be intercepted.

This is how PIRA was undermined, discredited and defeated, especially with the SAS wiping out their most dangerous units. After that comes the ideological destruction which is why PSF/PIRA today take part in doing the same to dissident Republicans whilst attempting to maintain the charade PIRA ideology is somehow intact.

Would you like me to further explain how PSF/PIRA finally accepted the British Government’s conditions after rejecting thrm for decades?

Happy to do so.

Thanks for the offer DownNative, but I will pass. I accept that I am no expert on defeating terrorism so I will take your word for it.

My issue is with the Western governments' insistence that it has to be a two-state solution, and the outrage expressed if anyone suggest a one-state solution may be the best way to go.

What I have learnt from this thread is that whilst either a one-state or a two-state scheme may be the solution in theory, neither have a snowball's chance in hell of being successfully implemented in reality.

As I said upthread, the problem will be self-limiting eventually as the whole region becomes uninhabitable due to climate change, (and lack of water), but "eventually" may be a long time away yet.

Fair enough.

One of the main reasons why Western Governments support a two State solution is because that IS the option with the highest level of support amongst Palestinians and Israelis.

The one State solution has less support.

As I said, you cannot impose any political settlement on peoples without majority support. So, a one State solution is unworkable given low levels of support.

But the two State solution has more support and more of a chance.

Israel is a state and can "invite" as many Jews as it likes to live in that state, but obviously it cannot expand into land that doesn't belong to Israel. That part is wrong, but the population and immigration decisions of Israel are it's own to make.

Trolling. Just ignore this poster

I can assure you I am not trolling - I am completely sincere.

I may be ignorant of some facts (have learned a lot here), or a bit idealistic, but you are wrong to call me a troll.

Would you care to make a substantive contribution to the debate?

I'm very pro Palestine etc but actually reading this thread, it has dawned on me that Jews don't have their own "Jewish" land, like obvs most of the Middle East are "Muslim countries". You have "Christian countries" but you haven't actually got a "Jewish country" just Israel which still isn't really "theirs" so to speak.

Like they are a minority in every country they settle in.

It doesn't seem fair to be honest

@SnowflakeCity Sorry, just seen your response now. But in answer to what you said, Yes, the UK does and is sitting back, along with other world leaders, and letting Israel commit genocide on the people of Palestine. People are out in the streets protesting, not just in the UK but across the world, to ask them to stop and give Palestinians the rights that they deserve.

I agree with you it needs to stop. It’s barbaric what is happening. It’s not just a case of Israel is retaliating to what happened to it anymore. It’s genocide. it’s removing people from their homes and we all know they won’t be allowed back, displacing them, traumatising whoever is left after all the killings. Starving them, denying them water, electricity, food, medical care. It’s just beyond awful. And to be honest I’m sick of reading about people defending Israel, giving history lessons in an attempt to justify it, talking about whose land it is and isn’t. Why they have more of a right to be on it and others don’t.

There is not justification to the murdering of people in front of the whole world just because Israel view them, in their own words as ‘human animals.’

People can’t justify what Israel are doing because of what they went through in WW2. It’s said that the tiny strip of land they have left is an open air prison and also likened to a concentration camp.

I cannot even comprehend how this is allowed to happen. Over 1050 children have died and many other women, men, elderly and disabled people. There is no justification. By the time our so called world leaders are done talking about sending aid to vulnerable Palestinians (because now it’s come to this instead of condemning Israel for its brutality and telling them to stop, the talk is of sending aid) no one will be left in Palestine to send aid to.