If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

[Poudretteite]

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide?

Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

Gaza are able to import these goods, often provided for free, but they do need to be inspected by the IDF prior to importation due to the continual provision of rocket and terror materials by Qatar and Hamas. The security concerns are legitimate: they are represented by the many, many thousands of rockets Hamas fire at Israel instead of prioritising agriculture or power for the Palestinian people.

Sorry, but how are the UN and Amnesty International anti-Semitic? The UN created Israel…? It’s hard to know differently when you post statements with no source to support them. I don’t know who you are or where you are getting this information from?

Yes the infrastructure was left intact by Israel, but that was of no use with a blockade preventing export and strict water control preventing growing food even to subsistence levels.

Can you please link me to the source for “burnt down by Hamas and families killed by Hamas” that you mentioned?

@Asthebellcurves
I have done a bit of digging on the Greenhouse saga and it seems there was a propaganda effort done so that might be where your recollection came from?
I found no mention of Hamas burning the greenhouses or killing the farmers & families.

Justin Schwegel is a recent JD graduate and Global Law Scholar from Georgetown University Law Center with a master's degree in international economic law from Sciences Po Paris. He was a public health educator with the Peace Corps in Guinea and formerly served as a fellow at the Palestine Economic Policy Research Institute.

Justin Schwegel wrote a report in 2014:
(every link sources what he reports)
”Admittedly, Palestinian looters took to the greenhouses when they were transferred to Palestinian control in mid-September 2005, hauling away some of the irrigation pipes, water pumps, plastic sheeting and glass, but leaving the greenhouses themselves structurally intact.
Bassil Jabir was the CEO of the Palestine Economic Development Company (PED), the organization founded by the Palestinian Authority to take charge of the greenhouse project after it was turned over to the Palestinians. The PED invested more than $20 million into the project. Jabir said that as a result of the destruction by Israeli settlers and Palestinian looters the PED had to invest an additional $5 million into the greenhouse project to revive it.
Despite the initial setbacks, the greenhouses were up and running by mid-October. By late November, the New York Times reported that the Palestinians were preparing to harvest a crop of peppers, strawberries, tomatoes and herbs worth $20 million. Presciently, in the same article, Palestinians expressed concern that if Israel did not keep the Karni border crossing open, it could result in the demise of the greenhouse project.
In mid-December, the greenhouses made their first export of 8 tons of peppers. Speaking to the Associated Press about the success of the project, Jabir said, “It makes us proud. This land was a symbol of occupation and many people were doubting our ability to rehabilitate [it], but now we have proven that we, as Palestinians, are able to manage our lives, to farm our land and to do our own business.”
That hope and pride soon turned to despair. According to Jabir, in order for the project to be successful, it would require moving at least 25 truckloads of produce a day through the Karni crossing. On rare days when the Karni crossing was functioning smoothly he was only able to move 3 truckloads. A crossing that was supposed to be open 24/7, per an international agreement to which Israel was party, was only open sporadically and unpredictably. Israel cited security concerns. The Palestine Economic Development Corporation and its Israeli distribution partner Adafresh were losing hundreds of thousands of dollars every week.
By February 2006, the BBC reported that because the farmers could not get their produce through the crossing, trucks were dumping perfect, ripe produce onto a wasteland to be eaten by goats. Bassil Jabir joked that because cows were eating their strawberries after they had rotted in the harsh sun next to the checkpoint, they had developed perfectly natural strawberry-flavored milk. According to Special Envoy Wolfensohn, “Instead of hope, the Palestinians saw that they were put back in prison.”
The BBC reported in February 2006, “Palestinians were convinced that Gaza was being deliberately strangled.” In March, Israeli daily Haaretz quoted the Commander of the IDF’s Gaza Division and the head of the Southern Command as stating there was no security-related reason for the closure of the Karni crossing. The Israeli Defense Minister ordered the closures to continue. Speaking to the BBC about Israeli border closures, Mr. Jabir stated, “This is a message to every investor: ‘Don’t come – there’s no hope of any investment flourishing.’” According to a PED report in early March made to Special Envoy Wolfensohn, the closures had cost the greenhouse project $5.4 million in the first two and a half months of 2006.
By April 2006, after months of border closures, there was no money left to pay the agricultural workers, and the project was shut down. Bassil Jabir quit as CEO of the Palestine Economic Development Company in 2006 and left the Gaza Strip in frustration.
During Israel’s June 2006 “Operation Summer Rains,” the United Nations Development Programme estimated that Israel inflicted $23.5 million in damage on Gaza’s agriculture, including damage to the greenhouses. Due to lack of project funds, no crop was planted that fall. During the next harvest season Israel kept the crossings open despite no noticeable change in security threat. Tentative plans were made to lease the greenhouses to independent farmers the next season, but when Israel and Egypt officially began the Gaza siege in 2007, the export-driven project was dead with no hope for revival.
At the beginning of 2008, Hamas militiamen blew a hole in the wall separating Gaza from Egypt. Many Gazans crossed into the Sinai to purchase goods and sell what they could. Farmers who had been prohibited from exporting their agricultural produce for years sold these same greenhouses to Sinai farmers who were not faced with similar export constraints and were happy to have them. Some greenhouses remained. Many were deliberately destroyed by the IDF during operation Cast Lead, which caused nearly $16 million in damage to Gaza greenhouses. Others have been destroyed by the most recent bombardment.”

https://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/propaganda-dehumanize-palestinians/

Mumsnet poster writes
"Israel withdrew from Gaza leaving hospitals, schools and infrastructure including greenhouses intact with opportunity for Gazans to build something lovely."

New York Times writes
A New York Times investigation revealed that at least half of the greenhouses had actually been destroyed by Israeli settlers before they left.

I know who my money's on.

The reason people don’t engage with you most of the time is because you come across like you’re on an ideological tirade as you seem completely unaware of uncaring of the sources and precision of information you keep sharing.

If you did, you’d know there is ample criticism of Amnesty International, an organisation that has a history of well-known false claims across conflicts. For example, do you remember hearing about the false testimony that helped trigger the first Gulf War? I would not ordinarily use Wikipedia, as it is a low quality source, but you keep referring to it and there is a whole article on criticism of AI that you can read here. Amnesty even robustly campaigned against the adoption of the IHRA definition of anti-semitism, attempting to justify having double standards about Israel (in their own words). As for the United Nations, you can read about their bias here and here as a start.

Hamas burnt down the economy during the civil conflict. There are lots of sources you can read about this, but here are lots: one, two, three, <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210910161843/www.hudson.org/content/researchattachments/attachment/1179/20100108_ct9forposting.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">four, five, six, seven. The destruction of Fatah affiliated properties and homes included huge swathes of Northern Gaza which was where the richest agricultural industry was and a lot of the develoepd economy. Proof this was a Fatah stronghold, so you can understand the implications of the articles is here.

There are many sources for the rejection of the lifting of the blockade prior to the establishment of the first Haniyeh administration. You can read the whole sorry tale: here, here and the Vanity Fair article again explicated this further because the UN link to the Quartet statement is currently down.

And more recently, even pro-Hamas sources report this. I can translate the article for you but not right now, and certainly I'd have to be convinced you're not an ideologue before I took the time to do it.

One of the issues is I assume you do not read Arabic or Hebrew, and much of this type of specific news is basically considered unimportant in Western-targeted media so isn’t reported, which is why it can be time consuming to provide you sources that you can actually read. Its very easy to write this up in responses to you, because I have worked in this sector for a long time, and I’ve seen this ongoing tragedy happen. The issue with all of this however? I don’t believe for a second you could change your mind, or are truly open to information, because you have already chosen sources unquestioningly and selected your narrative.

Okay, so say the settlers did half in line with the ever anti-Israel NYT, who did the other half? You know the answers here, you're so close. Many settlers are bad, no one is disputing that, but the extremist ones were dragged out of their homes and continued business as usual until that point in the most part.

Whoever this Law student is, he declined to read the disengagement Plan Implement Law. Freely available online as historical record.

Israeli settlers took THEIR POSSESSIONS including homes and agricultural materials. They didn't "loot them". It was their property to take with them and that was explicitly stated to be what would happen in the official disengagement plan.

What was left behind, was looted by the Palestinians or blown up by Hammas.

Please examine your sources before using them. We've asked you several times, and you're now choosing to use these types of sources. Ron Utz is a major funder of Mondo by the way. He called Jewish people an 'alien presence' in the United States.

@Asthebellcurves

The disengagement agreement always said Isrselis would remove things. It said they would try and sell things like agricultural facilities. They didn't so took their own possessions. That isn't looting!

Link of the legal agreement from the Knesset below as well as screen shot of the relevant paragraph.

https://ecf.org.il/media_items/352

I agree with you entirely. What was left burned down as it was owned by Fatah elites. The issue is no one who is new to the issue or regions understands the implications of Hamas killing Fatah members and destroying their property: that it sank the economy and removed the experts needed to help Gaza run effectively. They almost couldn't use the industrial zone after that.

It's genuinely fucking amazing to me that people try and blame Israelis for taking their OWN POSSESSIONS with them when they left Gaza rather than blaming Hamas who blew up everything that remained and then siphoned off every possible resource for terrorism.

People really betray how biased they are. It's absolutely always twisted around in their mind to defend bloody Hamas - seriously? What a hill to die on.

I think some people just Google furiously to find anything they can to point a finger at Israel. Their fixation is worrying.

"After the settlers were evacuated, the IDF destroyed the buildings that they left behind. The last private home left in Neve Dekalim was destroyed on September 1." Haaretz

"It was a traumatic time for the country. The dramatic scenes of distraught settlers being dragged from their homes and the destruction of buildings and greenhouses remain embedded in the national memory. "
Jerusalem post

The above is posted not to defend hamas but merely to correct the false idea that infrastructure was left intact
Hamas did indeed go on to destroy and loot some of what had been left.

We went through all this on a previous thread and I'm surprised that you come back and still maintain that the settlers left with good grace. A lot went kicking and screaming.
Next thread you'll be saying that settlers evacuated Gaza and left the Palestinians posies of flowers along with cards saying "Welcome to your new home"

Unclear who you're responding to, but all posts I've seen and made have pointed out that the IDF physically dragged settlers out when some refused to leave: showing Israel's dedication to peace. Thank you for acknowledging this.

When it comes to the property, please see @LemonyTicket's previous post. The economic infrastructure was left behind.

Yes we did go through it on another thread. Where I shared the legal agreement with you already, which clearly explained it wouldn't be left in tact entirely. Certainly some of it was, AS I CLEARLY SAID, yet here you are again spouting the same nonsense.

I'd love to say I'm suprised you're back here, but I'm not. I'd imagine you probably lay in bed at night dreaming of Israel with Iran TV on in the background

He's seen it. I showed it to him two days ago! He's just decided to continue to wilfully misrepresent what happened

@Asthebellcurves
When it comes to the property, please see @LemonyTicket's previous post. The economic infrastructure was left behind.

But it wasn't, half the greenhouses were demolished, not dismantled and rebuilt elsewhere, but destroyed, by settlers who were unhappy about the payment they were getting. Houses were also demolished, though I think initially there may have been agreement between PA and Israel to do that.

I believe that it was a sensible, bold and brave move by Israel to withdraw, especially as it didn't have a great deal of popular support amongst the electorate.

He's seen it. I showed it to him two days ago! He's just decided to continue to wilfully misrepresent what happened

Yep, Me, The NYT, Haaretz, and Jerualem post, we're all in it together to question what you wrote.

I've previously explained the distinction with ample sources. Please read it. It's to do with the political geography of Gaza and the 'destroyed property' and killings during the Hamas-Fatah conflict in 2006 that led to the economic infrastructure being destroyed. I'm not claiming some damage from Israelis upset at losing their homes didn't occur. I'm pointing out that it needn't have spoiled the economy - that was Hamas' subsequent decision making, and that the scope of a lot of reporting on that was driven by Israelis taking possessions with them.

It's very hard to report on Gaza, and there is also a lot of bias - making it very difficult to get a clear image unless you were/are there or involved in the processes.

@ Lemony
I'd imagine you probably lay in bed at night dreaming of Israel with Iran TV on in the background

I did try Iran state TV but I found it too wishy-washy and too liberal for my liking.

No. Again. You're twisting. The article you quoted says:

After the settlers were evacuated, the IDF destroyed the buildings that they left behind. The last private home left in Neve Dekalim was destroyed on September

Read the agreement. It clearly states houses would not be left behind.

They hired multiple professional crews to dismantle as much as thry could (as it was their property). It was a planned, executed operation and where applicable agricultural structures were dismantled.

They weren't bombed or smashed up with a baseball bat.

Exactly. Surely if you had a vested interest in prospering and caring for your citizens, you'd make an effort to do so.

@ Lemony
Read the agreement. It clearly states houses would not be left behind.

Read my flipping post. I said "Houses were also demolished, though I think initially there may have been agreement between PA and Israel to do that."
Heavens above, please read my posts at least once before commenting on them.
Right I'm off to bed, with North Korean TV on in the background.

This is a genuine question because I don’t know, so please don’t come down on me for being ignorant - I’m saying I’m ignorant right from the start!

the peace protest in Ireland/U.K./Northern Ireland seems like it happened finally because grassroots people/families had enough and the politicians involved used this momentum

is there a similar movement in this region? I know it’s so much harder in Gaza, with no elections in almost 20 years, to see the political dissent from civilians. I’ve seen the protests in Israel from young Israelis against their govt

is there a possibility of a third party brokering a peace? Or is this not realistic?

Asking questions is great! There are a huge number of grassroots peace orgs in the region. You may like to look at the Peres Center for Peace. The civil society orgs are included in peace talks, particularly in terms of their research, to look for tangible solutions to the conflict. They do amazing things getting victims of violence to come together and talk things through.

Its simply that the conflict is so violent that civil society alone can’t manage it. In Gaza and the West Bank, things are so politically divided within the Palestinian movement that people are regularly killed for political disagreements between Hamas, PIJ, al Aqsa, Fatah, and other extremist groups.