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If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

1000 replies

Poudretteite · 14/10/2023 14:39

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide?

Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

OP posts:
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asterel · 14/10/2023 23:36

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I don’t see anyone on this thread doing that. What ridiculous and offensive hyperbole.

Come to think of it, I haven’t seen any footage of Jewish people partying in the street celebrating videos of the corpses of raped women, have you? Who has been salivating about murdering people apart from those across the globe calling Hamas’s actions joyful and inspiring?

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 23:38

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Does the same or equivalent exist in the Torah, though?

Yes! Plenty. What a weird thing to say....

Trulywonderful · 14/10/2023 23:38

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 23:11

@Trulywonderful

I think my anger at the "anti zionism isn't antisemitism" brigade is more complex than that. Opposition to the idea of Jews having a homeland might be fine if you have an actual, cogent, alternative ideology by which you think people should live in the principles of equality. And it would have to be one Palestinians agreed to or it's pointless. But I think the concept of "anti zionism" as it's appeared in modern / fashionable circles, breeds antisemitism.

I wrote a post earlier on why:

First of all, the word “Zionism,” resonates for many people as an expression of hope for Jewish survival and liberation. Anyone who has read and knows the history knows they did not live free. Not anywhere. Not ever. But in our day the left has turned the word “Zionism” into an anti Jewish swear word of sorts, which they have constructed to mean whatever they want it to mean.

So in effect, the left defines Jews' Zionism for Jews, against their will, and without discussing it with them. It defines Zionism as racism or expansionism or support for apartheid. In so doing it defines most Jews against their will, as not decent human beings like the rest of humanity.

People who are hostile to Zionism have given the word "Zionism" a meaning that reflects their own hostility rather than the actual meaning of the word to the people whom it describes. On another thread, for example, the OP said she thought it meant "genocide" and "oppression". It certainly doesn't mean that to the people who are Zionists but if everyone defines them as that, then the damage is already done.

Anti Zionism is common amongst the modern left because it is based on what the Marxists see as an “idealist” system of living - equality and so on. It understands Israel as the manifestation of racist ideology (that Jews have an ethno state because they think they are superior), rather than it being a result of the material reality (that the history proved that Jews were actually unable to life in this "idealistic" world without being ritually killed and subjugated).

In the leftie mind, "Zionism" must be racism because a country that is majority Jewish and that is not a state for all its citizens past and present, must be racist. It figures that the state prioritises the rights of Jews, on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, over those of non-Jewish origin must be racist and bad. They dismiss entirely that for the last 700 years (including now) that the same applies to every Muslim state. It dismisses the reality that Jews lived for 600 years as Dhimmi (which truly is apartheid) and under constant threat of death.

That blatant double standard is justified with the idea that Israel should not exist anyway, as it was founded on the settler-colonial theft of land, which rightly belongs to “indigenous” Palestinians. They don't consider the possibility that Jews are also indigenous, or that Arabs may be migrants (a lot are).

It fixates on the idea that there are many Palestinians who are now not living where there families lived 100 years ago. But Jews today do not live where their families lived 100 years ago. Their families did not choose to move but were exiled or had to run away from certain death. Most of them did not choose where to go, they went where they would be allowed to go. And Jews obviously have family connection to other Jews.

Most perniciously of all, the new definition of “Zionism” in the modern left's imagination frequently characterises Jews as participating in dishonest global networks, conspiracies of lies and propaganda, in their own selfish interest. The idea of a "Israel lobby", controlling the world and policing what we say in order to allow them to continue being racist toerags without criticism. Even regular British Jews are accused each day of being part of this nefarious scheme.

So really modern "anti Zionism" often has little to do with proposing equality and multicultural ways of living together in equality. It more often that not targets solely Jews as underserving of freedom and safety from more dominant groups, and re-definitely their perfectly understandable hopes for the things all others take for granted as an expression of their negative characteristics.

So "Zionists" become a kind of evil sub set of people, and by portraying the overwhelming majority of Jews in the world as the enemies of all that is good, anti Zionism brings back to life the general idea that most Jews are "bad". The idea of most Jews as the “enemy of the people” is re-ignited. Which really was (I hoped) an ideology that I thought was stamped out after the Holocaust.

So anti Zionism in and of itself isn't anti semitic. But certainly the way the modern left goes about it reignites a lot of most antisemitic myths and ideas history has seen. Which makes me very sad, as I am a leftie and had to disassociate from politics and so on because I felt discriminated against due to them allowing "zionists" to be demonised in the above ways.

Totally agree with what you are saying and definitely could not have worded as wonderful clearly as yourself.

I must say in general people seem to be using Zionist to sub out jew when they want to be antisemitic less often than they were. I believe the general public are now aware of that little trick. Therefore jew haters have to be more careful.

Not looking forward to work on Monday. Teenagers are less careful with their words. Still last time it didn't take long for them to understand they can't go around potentially alienating some of their fellow classmates because of a conflict abroad. Begs the question why some universities can't work with their students to achieve what a secondary school can.

feralunderclass · 14/10/2023 23:39

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Yes of course. Because 50% of them are children, and knew exactly what they were getting into 🤔 I saw a young girl being pulled out of the rubble today, we should have no sympathy for her, nor is it Islamophobic or racist to say it was her fault because she voted for Hamas. I hope you sleep well tonight.

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 14/10/2023 23:40

The massive irony of all this is that the first division drawn up by the UN award much more land to the Arab population than it did to Israel. But they wouldn’t accept the idea of a Jewish state and decided to go to war instead. A war that is still going really with massive loss of life. and what has it really achieved except keeping old grievances open and stopped the people in the area from moving on with their lives.

My family were burned off their lands by the English in the 1800s. But I am
able to move past that because we resettled elsewhere and moved on.

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 14/10/2023 23:47

Here’s the map of the original proposed divisions which were rejected by the Arab League.

If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?
OneHurtSpaggettio · 14/10/2023 23:49

There are some really dangerously-minded people on this thread, who in not so many words, are essentially saying that Palestinians have signed off on their own genocide, because they didn’t want to be colonised, and didn’t “agree” to it, and why haven’t they just left already to go to another country.

I really recommend watching “Born in Gaza” on Netflix.

Go on. I dare you.

Also to those saying that Palestinians seem to hate Israelis: maybe if, as a child, your whole family was murdered and your friends were blown up in front of you, and you barely survived, you might be a wee bit traumatised and angry, too?

Evil is thriving and well. Perpetuated by some of the kindly mumsnetters on this post. Gives me the creeps.

feralunderclass · 14/10/2023 23:54

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 14/10/2023 23:40

The massive irony of all this is that the first division drawn up by the UN award much more land to the Arab population than it did to Israel. But they wouldn’t accept the idea of a Jewish state and decided to go to war instead. A war that is still going really with massive loss of life. and what has it really achieved except keeping old grievances open and stopped the people in the area from moving on with their lives.

My family were burned off their lands by the English in the 1800s. But I am
able to move past that because we resettled elsewhere and moved on.

Well clearly the 108 million displaced people in the world aren't as amazing as you and your family. Perhaps you could educate them as to how they should "move on and settle elsewhere".

Ameni · 14/10/2023 23:54

WaveyGodshawk · 14/10/2023 23:14

What do you mean by "called" - the IRA were terrorists, and I say that as an Irish person.

This was a typo error in response to a post that basically said only “brown people” get called terrorists.

I then posted intending to say the IRA were called terrorists and were white - ie not only brown people are called terrorists.

I made a typo and put the IRA were terrorists which changed the meaning of my post so I corrected it.

I was making no comment about the troubles, I was making a comment about the terrorists not only being confined to / used to describe “brown people” .

I respond as an Irish person :)
síocháin a bheith leat

Delilah023 · 14/10/2023 23:55

asterel · 14/10/2023 23:36

I don’t see anyone on this thread doing that. What ridiculous and offensive hyperbole.

Come to think of it, I haven’t seen any footage of Jewish people partying in the street celebrating videos of the corpses of raped women, have you? Who has been salivating about murdering people apart from those across the globe calling Hamas’s actions joyful and inspiring?

https://x.com/HAGR1134936/status/1712948943275856041?s=20

Also interesting people taking the bait of a post above that pointed out what some people genuinely believe, that Palestinians are culpable for their own genocide.

If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?
If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?
Delilah023 · 14/10/2023 23:59

https://twitter.com/OnlinePalEng/status/1712459424567013852

It's very cool and normal that Israel has people like this. Excellent moral force about to go in and gently remove the bad Palestinians, leaving only the good ones. So they tell me.

If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?
LemonyTicket · 15/10/2023 00:00

Rudderneck · 14/10/2023 23:33

I find people tend to use Zionism to describe a few different things.

Some just use it to mean approving, in the general sense, of Israel as a state. It basically takes it for granted that it is a legitimate state as it exists now and doesn't really make any kind of ideological stance as such. That's probably what most people mean when they use it.

Others use it ideologically, as in, there is some kind of necessity or right for an ethnically Jewish state to exist. Not just as a pragmatic solution to a problem like persecution of Jews, if it did not already exist as a political unit, they would say it ought to. Often this can have a religious element, and for some religious Jewish people (and weirdly evangelical Christians in the US) this is a really important idea. There are quite a few people who think of it that way, too, and then some who sort of combine the two in a mushy way.

I don't believe in the second of those things myself, I do think that people who live in a place have a right to citizenship, and some kind of voice in government, but I don't thing rights belong to states - no state has a right to exist in a particular form. But I don't think that there is any religious call from God for either Jews or Muslims have to their vision of a state in that particular place.

In the end I don't know what Israel should do. I am pragmatic, and while I think the whole idea of establishing a homeland in the Middle East for Jews living across the whole world came from very human and humane motives, I don't think it was ever politically going to work, and I can't see any way to make it work now. I think in time the whole region will be a failed state and revert to some sort of chaos, or one side will obliterate the other.

Not a happy thought but it is what I think will happen.

This is not directed at you in any way: what you wrote was absolutely fine, but the idea Zionism can have different meanings is not okay. So this is directed at everyone generally.

Zionism is a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the
development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.

That is what it means and all it means.

People can’t redefine Jews' Zionism for Jews, against their will, and without discussing it with them and then apply all these hateful meaning to essentially most Jews.

This whole concept of creating a caricature of the "zionist" as encapsulating a wide array of pejoratives (racist, colonial, violent, conspiring to some unpleasant agenda blah blah) serves to defacto reignite the general idea that most
Jews are "bad" or an “enemy of the people”, which is an ideology that should have ended with the Holocaust.

If people are upset with settlers, then say so. If they are upset with racism, then say so.

This is our word.

We know what it means.

Please stop using it as a wear word for everything you hate in the world because you are enforcing a descriptor of our identity onto us that we have not consented to.

Beyondshock · 15/10/2023 00:00

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 14/10/2023 23:03

@Beyondshock

You are kidding, right? One is the standing army for a nation that Under takes defence against attack from neighbouring nations and the other are a group funded by Iran that under take kidnapping, torture and bomb attacks (even in the country they claim to govern) against anyone they see as anti-Islamic in the name of their overall goal to kill ever Jew on earth and cleanse the levant of Jewish people.

I love how you can defend people who think homosexuality is an abomination and treat women with brutality.

You don’t see the difference?

There’s no difference between the two. If Hamas are backed by Iran. Israel is backed by the United States and given billions in aid every year. If Hamas kidnap and murder and create havoc so do the Israelis…the Israelis however on a Much much larger scale. If Hamas are against homosexuality. Israelis are extremely racist to their Ethiopian Jews. They’re the same. The ONLY difference I can see, is that Israel is better funded and so when they hit(which is all the time) the effect felt byPalestinian civilians is more violent and more severe than if Hamas were to hit Israel.

Beyondshock · 15/10/2023 00:03

And no one is redefining Zionism. Zionism is to make a homeland for Jews everywhere. That’s true. We’re all saying it’s true. But was that land empty? HOW are you making a land for Jews? And where are those Jews coming from? Zionism is colonialism. It IS murder by your own definition. For a Jewish state to come true there is a price. And that price is Palestinian lives.

Ameni · 15/10/2023 00:04

Beyondshock · 15/10/2023 00:00

There’s no difference between the two. If Hamas are backed by Iran. Israel is backed by the United States and given billions in aid every year. If Hamas kidnap and murder and create havoc so do the Israelis…the Israelis however on a Much much larger scale. If Hamas are against homosexuality. Israelis are extremely racist to their Ethiopian Jews. They’re the same. The ONLY difference I can see, is that Israel is better funded and so when they hit(which is all the time) the effect felt byPalestinian civilians is more violent and more severe than if Hamas were to hit Israel.

You mean there is equivalency? Rather than the same.

WaveyGodshawk · 15/10/2023 00:05

Ameni · 14/10/2023 23:54

This was a typo error in response to a post that basically said only “brown people” get called terrorists.

I then posted intending to say the IRA were called terrorists and were white - ie not only brown people are called terrorists.

I made a typo and put the IRA were terrorists which changed the meaning of my post so I corrected it.

I was making no comment about the troubles, I was making a comment about the terrorists not only being confined to / used to describe “brown people” .

I respond as an Irish person :)
síocháin a bheith leat

Agus leat féin. Tá brón orm. I'm misreading context in everything at this stage, time for me to bow out.

LemonyTicket · 15/10/2023 00:05

@Ratsoffasinkingsauage

Sorry to Nitpick lovely, middle eastern historian here. The Peel commissions original map of 1937 was actually much more generous than the one you showed.

Green land was proposed Israel
Orange was proposed Palestine
Red was proposed to be joint area under British rule (as they were bickering over it)

And as you say - the Arab league rejected it on the basis they felt Jews should not have any rule over any land at all.

If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?
Tiredandgrumpy31 · 15/10/2023 00:06

@Ratsoffasinkingsauage
thanks for clarifying. Yes, sadly the divisions will only become deeper than ever with everything that has happened over the last week and so the hatred and violence goes on.

LemonyTicket · 15/10/2023 00:06

OneHurtSpaggettio · 14/10/2023 23:49

There are some really dangerously-minded people on this thread, who in not so many words, are essentially saying that Palestinians have signed off on their own genocide, because they didn’t want to be colonised, and didn’t “agree” to it, and why haven’t they just left already to go to another country.

I really recommend watching “Born in Gaza” on Netflix.

Go on. I dare you.

Also to those saying that Palestinians seem to hate Israelis: maybe if, as a child, your whole family was murdered and your friends were blown up in front of you, and you barely survived, you might be a wee bit traumatised and angry, too?

Evil is thriving and well. Perpetuated by some of the kindly mumsnetters on this post. Gives me the creeps.

What on earth are you talking about.

Palestine was "colonised" by the Greeks, then the Romans, then the Ottomans for literally thousands of years. It was not "colonised" by Jews.

Ididivfama · 15/10/2023 00:08

HermioneWeasley · 14/10/2023 15:00

The map is self explanatory. The idea that Israel is unreasonable having the land it does is preposterous. Yes, the way they have taken land has been unreasonable and I do not support the civilian death toll in Gaza at present, but the idea that tiny Israel should be divided up because there is nowhere for Palestinians to go is ridiculous.

Yes Israel is tiny and the only Jewish country, but saying Palestinians should leave is like saying all English people should leave Britain because they could all live in Western Europe.

Ameni · 15/10/2023 00:08

@WaveyGodshawk The context itself is exhausting. Good night and God bless :)

LemonyTicket · 15/10/2023 00:09

Delilah023 · 14/10/2023 23:59

https://twitter.com/OnlinePalEng/status/1712459424567013852

It's very cool and normal that Israel has people like this. Excellent moral force about to go in and gently remove the bad Palestinians, leaving only the good ones. So they tell me.

I don't understand why people share stuff like this. It's a video of a complete sadistic prick....and?

We have those here

Everywhere does.

It's not really a useful thing to share - unless your objective is anti Israeli propaganda? Or to imply all Jewish people are like this?

asterel · 15/10/2023 00:09

Delilah023 · 14/10/2023 23:55

https://x.com/HAGR1134936/status/1712948943275856041?s=20

Also interesting people taking the bait of a post above that pointed out what some people genuinely believe, that Palestinians are culpable for their own genocide.

Edited

That’s people partying around the world, is it? Jewish people out partying on the streets in London and Brighton, are there, giving speeches about how proud and joyful they are?

@OneHurtSpaggettio — so, what you’re saying is that it’s sometimes okay to celebrate violent murder and rape. Is it okay for people around the world who aren’t in Gaza and have never been there to celebrate it too and call it justified?

I can tell you - I don’t think it’s justified. I think a great many people quite enjoy the idea that sometimes it’s okay to rape and kill, if you think you have a “cause” serious enough. That’s both for Hamas, and for a lot of people around the world who are angry about Gaza, but not so angry about the murder of Jews. And there’s a ridiculous amount of projection on the thread from posters who want to pretend that nobody cares about the civilians in Gaza if they also don’t believe Jewish people should be murdered either.

Delilah023 · 15/10/2023 00:09

LemonyTicket · 15/10/2023 00:09

I don't understand why people share stuff like this. It's a video of a complete sadistic prick....and?

We have those here

Everywhere does.

It's not really a useful thing to share - unless your objective is anti Israeli propaganda? Or to imply all Jewish people are like this?

Read the thread and you'd see why it was posted. It was making a point.

quiteoldad · 15/10/2023 00:10

Bumbamtamytam · 14/10/2023 22:51

It is true. Turkish consulate gave many of them citizenship and trains were arranged to carry them over. In fact there's a movie documenting this, and the some academics established a university in Istanbul. I personally know the grandchildren of some who have built a car factory just outside Istanbul. You should do a little Internet search.

@Bumbamtamytam
I've done some research, and from what I have found, it appears that you've fallen prey to Turkish, revisionist propaganda.

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