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If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

1000 replies

Poudretteite · 14/10/2023 14:39

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide?

Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

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asterel · 14/10/2023 18:57

Pollyputhekettleon · 14/10/2023 18:40

I know Zionism had been around for decades before 1948. What I was wondering was why the Zionists thought the Arabs/muslims in the Middle East would tolerate it. Why would they hand over land conquered by Islam to former dhimmis? Or allow it to happen and just peacefully get on with their lives forever after? It seems about the most out of character thing they could possibly do.

Mainly because the region had been under the sway of various empires which were also not Arab - there were communities of lots of religions, Arab, Christian and Jews - and none of them were self-governing under, for example, the Ottoman Turks. So it was seen as a region where new nation states would offer citizens modernity rather than living under foreign empires.

You have to understand here that the modern nation state is a relatively recent construction - even in Western Europe, some modern states simply didn’t exist until the mid- or late nineteenth century — look at the history of Italy, for example. In Britain, the Reform Acts of the early-mid 1800s had only recently established general suffrage even for men. Many parts of the world still lived not in nation states, but under tribal or imperial rule (and not just Western empires by a long way). There were no votes or collective nations or modern states in a lot of the world.

Nationalism and self-determination as a religious or cultural group was thought of as bringing democracy, self-rule and modernity to regions which had lived under other monarchical or absolute rulers from elsewhere, but had never existed as a nation as such. So you can see that lots of peoples and communities within the region saw a chance to create nation states of their own.

The surrounding Arab states in the Levant were all also pretty newly-constructed, too! In the early twentieth century, during the disintegration of the former empires, there was a lot of creating and recreating nations and borders going on all over the place - pretty much everywhere in Africa and Asia. Look at the history of, for example, Syria, Lebanon, or Iran. The Palestine region was not alone in this at all.

Lonelycrab · 14/10/2023 18:58

My thoughts

The two peoples cannot live together. There is too much ingrained hatred and trauma at a generational level. Perhaps in the future but not now.

This needs the help of the international communities, Eu, Us, U.K. and Arab nations. Everyone.

Two/three state solution, Israel has the north, Palestine the south broadly speaking, with a 20 mile DMZ policed by the basically the whole world encompassing Jerusalem.

This won’t happen as-

A: it’s easier to sell bombs and promote war to gain support. Applies to both sides

B: The international will is not there.see above.

hamas are an evil terrorist organisation no doubt, and need treating as such. But that has to be done without the massacre of innocents

coffeeaddict77 · 14/10/2023 18:58

Pollyputhekettleon · 14/10/2023 18:47

That's not an answer to the question of why the Jews needed their own state. A question you already know the answer to.

I am asking the question,not answering it. If they can only have their own state by forcing the people that were already there out, and fighting to stay there it doesn't make them safer.

Trulywonderful · 14/10/2023 19:00

Mustardseed86 · 14/10/2023 18:49

Fascinating. I didn't know that. It really is just about not wanting a Jewish state, specifically, isn't it?

Yes it always has been and always will be. Jordan was supposed to be the Arab part of the British mandate split. Hence why when the ex hamas leader called for a jihad he referred to Jordanians. A lot of the Arab world still call them Jordanians. They only took upnthe name Palestinians in the 60s when Arafat told them to in order as he said himself to further the Arab cause.

The Palestinians flag that was also only created in 1967 ish is actually the Jordanian flag with the star taken off!

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 19:01

HermioneWeasley · 14/10/2023 14:56

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 leaving infrastructure including a power station. The Palestinians elected Hamas who have used aid to stockpile weapons, destroyed the power station and used water pipes supplied by the EU to make rockets to attack Israel. Gaza is subsequently dependent on Israel for water and power which has been provided free of charge, and somehow it’s still the fault of the Israelis. And Hamas are such a liability that Egypt closed their border with Gaza.

Hamas’s stated objective is to wipe Israel off the map.

The Peel Commission offer gave 80% of the land to Arab Palestinians. They said no.

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 19:05

JustAMinutePleass · 14/10/2023 15:05

Israel must stop claiming to be a Jewish State, Palestine must stop claiming to be Muslim state, and the whole of Israel and Palestine must be divided up into Federal States with a Muslim / Jewish / Christian coalition central government. Jerusalem needs to be UN territory. Forced conscription must stop. This is the ONLY way.

This would be forcing a Palestinian Muslim group of Arabs to live in a Western style democracy with laws, values and beliefs that they find immoral and contrary to their religion and world ethos. So it's a nice idea, but entirely based on your world beliefs.

Reallifelurker · 14/10/2023 19:05

I just find it interesting that a large number people don't seem to realise that Israelis have just as many historical links and ties to the area as Palestinians

I don’t think it’s the historical links that are the issues as such. Most people realise the Jewish people have links to Jerusalem surely? And that there are three religions that are linked to it - Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Lonelycrab · 14/10/2023 19:05

The Peel Commission offer gave 80% of the land to Arab Palestinians. They said no.

What do you think should happen now.

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 14/10/2023 19:05

Yes @Mustardseed86 Hamas specifically object to a Jewish state. They are so bigoted that they cannot even allow Jewish people to exist on earth. They are lunatics.

And get some people excuse their actions as mere retaliation to provocation. Some people agree with Hamas but can’t say it out loud. So instead they focus only on the rights of Palestinians and sweep aside the historic persecution of Jewish people under Christian and Islamic rulers.

Even a brief glance at history shows that Judea (Isreal) predated Palestine by centuries. It is considered the original homeland of the twelve tribes of Israel and unfortunately contains some of the most holy places for all Abrahamic religions. The only way to find a way to share the space is if the people of the area can find a way to unite. And unfortunately that is not going to happen when one side considers the other sub-human.

RedCrossSupporter · 14/10/2023 19:06

Asthebellcurves · 14/10/2023 14:47

Unfortunately that proposal was rejected by Palestinians (the Peel Commission and then the UN Partition plan) who then started a war over the latter.

Yes in 1948 because it involved forced expulsion of most Palestinians which ended up as refugees in Gaza and West Bank. That’s why they rejected it then.

But they agreed in 1993 at the Oslo Accords, which fell apart largely due to Israel’s ignoring the agreement and doing illegal settlements on Palestinian lands.

They agreed again in 2015, but Netanhyu (Israel) backed out at the last minute, and that fell apart too.

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 19:06

This reply has been deleted

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Boshi · 14/10/2023 19:08

Pollyputhekettleon · 14/10/2023 18:56

I'd say most of the pro Palestinian crowd believe the Jews lived there 2000 years ago, got kicked out, then all tried to go back after 1945, stole the natives' land at gunpoint, and the locals were understandably upset

Give over. The links you are talking about go back generations. Most of the Israelis settling in the newly created Israel were immigrants to the area, from Europe, US and some from surrounding Arab countries.

By that logic, let’s all go and lay claim to Africa and boot out the indigenous population as we were also there.

Reallifelurker · 14/10/2023 19:08

If land grabs and mistreatment creates terrorists, why aren't all Jews terrorists

Not all Palestinians are terrorists. Some Israeli’s (like their prime minister and his ilk) may as well be the way they behave.

RedCrossSupporter · 14/10/2023 19:10

HermioneWeasley · 14/10/2023 14:56

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 leaving infrastructure including a power station. The Palestinians elected Hamas who have used aid to stockpile weapons, destroyed the power station and used water pipes supplied by the EU to make rockets to attack Israel. Gaza is subsequently dependent on Israel for water and power which has been provided free of charge, and somehow it’s still the fault of the Israelis. And Hamas are such a liability that Egypt closed their border with Gaza.

Hamas’s stated objective is to wipe Israel off the map.

Most of this is not true. Gaza’s power plant was not destroyed by Hamas, although Israel almost destroyed it by bombing it in 2014. The reason Gaza are dependent on Israel for power and water is because of the 16yr blockade that Israel has done.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_electricity_crisis

Gaza electricity crisis - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_electricity_crisis

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 19:12

SnowflakeCity · 14/10/2023 15:44

I don't see why Jewish people have to go anywhere? Multicultural societies are a good thing. Everyone lives side by side like civilised people. No one steals houses or land, no one discriminates on the basis of religion. Resources are shared fairly between everyone. It can be just like lots of democratic societies. It'll be bumpy at first for sure, when you've caged people up for years they tend to be pissed off but the UN can have troops on the ground and make sure that everyone plays fairly.

"Multicultural societies are a good thing"

To you.

Not to everyone.

If you look at polls around the Middle East the majority of people do not hold these views and you can't really forcibly impose them on people who think they are wrong.

CurlewKate · 14/10/2023 19:14

I don't know. It's an unspeakably appalling situation. But the Israeli government should not be committing war crimes-and other countries should not be complicit in war crimes.

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 19:14

flufferknutter · 14/10/2023 15:47

It's a pity that Egypt couldn't be paid for some of their land and then that could be reclaimed from the desert and a two state solution created with plenty of land for everyone, but I'm probably just fantasising. It might not even be geographically possible (desert) and Egypt might not be up for it anyway, although they say everyone has their price.

Feel free to mock my silliness, I'm not proud.

But what if the population grows?

Palestinian population has grown 480% since 1948 which is considerably faster than the average population growth of the world. They are having a lot of babies, at about twice the rate of the Jewish population of Israel

Boshi · 14/10/2023 19:14

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asterel · 14/10/2023 19:15

RedCrossSupporter · 14/10/2023 19:06

Yes in 1948 because it involved forced expulsion of most Palestinians which ended up as refugees in Gaza and West Bank. That’s why they rejected it then.

But they agreed in 1993 at the Oslo Accords, which fell apart largely due to Israel’s ignoring the agreement and doing illegal settlements on Palestinian lands.

They agreed again in 2015, but Netanhyu (Israel) backed out at the last minute, and that fell apart too.

There were also lots of other attempts, which were scuppered by Arab or Palestinian leaders such as Arafat, for example - eg the 2000 Camp David summit. It really is much more complex than you are suggesting.

SnowflakeCity · 14/10/2023 19:18

Spambod · 14/10/2023 18:40

Let me know what part of your hateful comment you are assigning to me. Vile.

I'm not following you sorry? The 'great catastrophe' that you mentioned was the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people by Jews right? That is what Nakba was Confused I'm not sure what is hateful about that?

Lonelycrab · 14/10/2023 19:19

To you.

Not to everyone

Dunno, I lived in Peckham se15 for many years, 25 infact. A more multicultural society you will not find in most places, and it was vibrant and great.

Be nice and respect each other. Goes a long way👍

SnowflakeCity · 14/10/2023 19:21

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 19:12

"Multicultural societies are a good thing"

To you.

Not to everyone.

If you look at polls around the Middle East the majority of people do not hold these views and you can't really forcibly impose them on people who think they are wrong.

Oh it's a shame that you feel Israel wouldn't think that a multicultural society is a good thing. Personally, I think that with enough assistance from the UN it could happen.

Trulywonderful · 14/10/2023 19:21

coffeeaddict77 · 14/10/2023 18:58

I am asking the question,not answering it. If they can only have their own state by forcing the people that were already there out, and fighting to stay there it doesn't make them safer.

Jews were there pre 1948 though and a lot of other people. Most of which arrived on the largely abandoned and unused land that British mandate because the Jews started to develop it. The first Jewish University on the land was built in 1909!

Population of pre-Mandate Palestine was 800k about 80k of whom were Jewish, the rest a mix of Turks, Bedouins, Muslim & Christian Arabs, & European ex-pats.

Over 500k of that initial 800k were Arabs who arrived between 1932 & 1944 attracted by the Yishuv's burgeoning finances.

After the second World War nobody wanted the holocaust survivors. They were seen largely as immigrants in the same way as lot of people see immigrants today. Plus Britain and a lot of other countries had stopped them seeking safety at the start of the holocaust! The British had turned away boat loads of people. Some countries had actually rounded up their Jews and handed them over to the nazis. So Jews really didn't feel safe / were not safe returning home or to those countries. The British mandate already had a larger than normal Jewish percentage of population and had been the Jewish Capital in Roman times. In fact it has never been a Capital or State for anyone other than the Jews. Until 1967 when the arabs made one Jews were the only people to have ever made a flag to represent that land. Basically ost Arabs that lived there considered themselves still Jordanians, Egyptians or Syrians depending on were they had emigrated from originally. It was only in the 60s when Arafat told them to call themselves Palestinians to further the Arab cause that they became Palestinians and the Jordan flag with the star removed was used. Hence why the ex hamas leader called on the 'Jordanians' and others to have a Jihad day on Friday. He was speaking to the Palestinians and their supporters. After all the mandate was split with the largest share given to the Arabs on the land. This is what is part of Jordan now. So they are in fact Jordanians like the Arab leaders often call them.

RedCrossSupporter · 14/10/2023 19:22

WaveyGodshawk · 14/10/2023 15:48

Israel have agreed (to the best of my knowledge) with every two state solution proposed.

No they have not.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

Two-state solution - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

RedCrossSupporter · 14/10/2023 19:25

Spambod · 14/10/2023 16:48

No, only about 700,000 were kicked out in the great catastrophe of 1948 when Israel was created and took over. No one under 75 was there. The majority Arab population who calls themselves Palestinian and claim the land were workers who emigrated after Israel was formed to work there. Their ancestry will be Jordanians, Syrian, Egyptian etc.

This isn’t true about the Palestinians. It’s been proven that both the Jewish people and the Palestinians are indigenous to the region.

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