To think we need to speak up

[BigBillyButterBollocks]

Loud. Fast.

I don't want to turn it into a Hamas is responsible/Israel is responsible. I don't want to turn it into a debate.

It takes 3 to 5 days to die from dehydration. Probably less for babies. Being stuck with 2 million people also desperate for water is gonna turn ugly. Then there are the bombings, no food, the lack of medical supplies.

When a journalist asked if the electricity cuts would impact babies in incubators, he was shamed for supporting Hamas beheading babies.

When a journalist asked if the siege was a war crime, the impact on civilians and why did all politicians present the attack as Islamist attack against Jews without any context about the Palestinian cause, he was shamed for supporting Hamas and the atrocities that happened.

When a journalist asked if the siege was legal, that labour lady whose name escapes me kept on repeating a rehearsed message of "Israel has the right to defend himself".

They all seem to have gotten a memo that you deflect any question with shaming and bringing up the atrocities against Israeli children.

Atrocities happened in Israel. It sickens me and saddens me deeply. There is no excuse for it. But it can't be used to avoid talking about what is happening in Gaza. I feel we are being gaslighted into not asking questions.

I want to believe they are secretely working on a deal but I don't think they are. And time is not on Gaza's civilians side.

AIBU to think we should be making a lot of noise for our politicians to stop defending the Gaza siege and start speaking up about this? NOW. Not in 3/5/10 days?

It is haunting me at the moment. I can't focus at work, I can't sleep. What the fuck are we letting happen?

. Also, they are surround by Israel, the egyptian border being bombed and the sea being controlled by Israel. What are you on about?

If there was the will to help them then the other Arab nations would help them? Why do you think that's not happening?

No one will because they are afraid of Israel’s #1 ally the USA.

What is Egypt’s position?

Would they take people, I’m not sure they will

Once somewhere has been blown to smithereens, it is pretty obvious that there won’t be anything to switch back on.

Water / sewage pipes will all be smashed, as will electricity and phone networks. The whole place will just be piles of rubble.

It is never right, no matter what the backstory, to do that kind of thing to a civilian population.

What the British air force did to Dresden in WWII was wrong, what the German air force did to Coventry was wrong- and the latter didn’t make it ok for the RAF to flatten everything in Dresden and kill lots of civilians, although at the time it was justified by many as just a part of “total war”. Deliberately and indiscriminately killing civilians (via bombs or by cutting off water and food) is always morally wrong, no matter who is doing it.

Who? Who should step in and sort out this mess?

I feel physically ill about it. Our ships should be doing a Dunkirk operation and sailing to the shore and taking in Palestinian refugees. Not sitting mutely or joining in on bombing what’s left of 2 million people, half of which are children to their deaths.

The good side?? Mate, this isn't a marvel film. Israel are not "the bad side". They have just had 1,300 people slaughtered overnight, including children, by a terrorist organisation. The military presence is to prevent further attacks from Hamas, and the other surrounding countries that have been urged to attack Israel in response.

Many western countries have urged restraint. Did you see Macron's and Blinken's speeches? Not the UK, in fairness. But equally, Israel have said that they will let aid in if hostages are released. Hamas won't, because they want the escalation.

I am sort of with you. I don't think that the UK government should support the siege, and I don't think that Israel should do... whatever they are planning to do to North Gaza in 24 hours' time. But I equally think that calling Hamas "the good side" is delusion at best, and terrorism support at worse.

You are absolutely right OP. I see Hamas was brought up straight away, but these are innocent people NOT Hamas.
A baby was found in breastfeeding position in rubble in Gaza, that sickened me.
This siege is utterly vile, and so are the world leaders who stand by and watch.

The United Nations, US and western nations

arab neighbours

Palestine and Israel

ANYONE

or should the violence just carry on like it has for the last bit of the century?

I’m ashamed to be British. The tories are supporting bullies and giving aid in killing innocent people and children.

That made me cry. I have a baby daughter myself and the thought of her being hurt in anyway makes me feel ill.

it’s unbearable seeing dead Palestinian children.

It hit me hard too, my youngest has long stopped breastfeeding, and even with more independence he's still so little and dependent on us.
The amount of babies killed on both sides beggars belief, that humans can be so evil towards the most vulnerable amongst us.
I wonder if babies being born in Gaza even have a chance at the moment, with no electricity or supplies coming in.

I'm struggling with this narrative. Why are you all angry at Israel, and not Hamas? We all seem to agree that: 1. Palestine is not the same thing as Hamas. 2. Palestinian civilians should not be harmed. Some of us also think that 3. Israeli civilians should not be harmed.

Why is the solution not that Hamas releases the hostages (including babies and children), and then Israel stop the seige?

Perhaps the reason is that there is just 0 point applying pressure to Hamas because they just give no shits about what the West think, but that Israel only exists because of US support? So Israel WILL listen to the West, but Hamas won't?

'Palestinians voted for Hamas'. Do you think it was a free vote? Do you think the election wasn't a forgone conclusion? What do you think would happen to the ordinary Palestinian who stands up to Hamas? The last election was in 2005. So if you are 17 or under you didn't 'vote' for Hamas. But you have lived your whole life effectively in prison having committed no crime at all. How do you feel about Israel who keeps you there?

The entire situation is horrifying for innocent civilians on both sides. I think we can all agree on that.

There is no justification for what Hamas did to israeli women and children last week, and there is no justification for what the Israeli government are doing to palestinian women and children this week.

There is also no justification for harassment and hatred of either jews or muslims across the globe based on this.

This isn’t some simplistic movie narrative about ‘goodies’ and ‘baddies’, it’s real life. It’s about the abject horror and pointlessness of war and the historical inability of the human race to see past our differences. There are no winners here.

So you're happy for war crimes to be carried out as long as the target is others?

Shockingly callous.

There are things we don't do, even if someone else has done them. One is starve, inflict a drought upon and bomb a race of people who are mostly children.

Without so much as an escape corridor that isn't under bombardment or a reasonable time frame to vacate.

You're saying Hamas want to exterminate Israel? Look at Israel's intentions for Gaza. Do you really think Israel is any better?

Increasingly, spectators are thinking perhaps Israel are not any better than the kind of regime that eventually justified condemning children to agonising deaths in Syria when faced with the right set of circumstances. No whataboutery regarding Hamas, please. Thinking about what Israel is doing right now, many people are realising just what Israel is prepared to do. And they are horrified by the huge numbers of suffering innocents that Israel is willing to victimise in the name of self defense, as if these children's lives matter less. They don't even care if the UN get out. Condemning that is not antisemitic and it doesn't mean we're any less appalled and heartbroken about the losses suffered in Israel. We just have a moral compass that doesn't turn on and off selectively.

Egypt wants to send in humanitarian aid but Israel has been bombing the Rafah border crossing to prevent that. They have convoys of aid ready to go just across the border in Sinai. However, Egypt isn’t letting any people out of Gaza.

I think Israel will force Egypt to take all of the survivors. Strategically, they massed 360,000 troops on the northern border to Gaza, they bombed in a N to S pattern. Now that water, food, electricity and fuel (including for generators) have run out, they have announced for civilians to evacuate S towards Egypt.

This order includes everyone, even UN, Red Cross/Red Crescent and Press, and even injured in hospital/health clinics- that’s one of the reasons the UN has called it an impossible order. It is clear they are herding the Palestinians towards the Rafah border crossing to Egypt and will kill with little discrimination as they go because they’ve basically implied anyone N of the evacuation line in Gaza may be deemed a Hamas terrorist by saying it is for “their safety”. They might intend to keep pushing south in stages until Egypt lets people flee across Rafah.

Gaza will be a pile of rubble.

I fear this because the rhetoric coming from the Israeli government has been alluding to changing the Middle East forever- that often means wiping entire places off the map and redrawing borders.

There are no excuses for collective punishment. That is a choice Israel is making. Israel are a democratic country. Hamas are terrorists. You hold terrorists and governments of democratic countries to different standards.

Yes, I think there is an expectation that Israel will behave with some kind of moral decency. Killing 1000 people in a terrorist massacre is deplorable but there is not an expectation that those people can be reasoned with, especially when the Palestinian people live under deprived circumstances that is fertile ground for terrorism to win hearts and minds. A democratic government and ally carrying out a genocide that will kill millions is something that could and should be called off or sanctioned as it is clearly not the answer and will only lead to more terrorism.

The best way to not harm the Israeli hostages would be for Israel to not carpet bomb the city where they are, and cut off all food, water and medicine to the city they are in. What you do in a situation with hostages is you negotiate.

I have read that 13 Israeli hostages have been killed by Israeli air strikes.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/13-hostages-killed-during-israeli-airstrikes-on-gaza-live/ar-AA1hQ36w

Did you miss them being bombed and the US showing their teeth to all the countries around?

Actually good points - that we expect a certain level of behaviour from democracies, that we do not expect from terrorists.

What would happen, I wonder, if the US and the UK put a load of Gaza refugees on boats? Presumably Israel would not drop bombs on them.

'The result was a victory for Hamas, contesting under the list name of Change and Reform, which received 44.45% of the vote and won 74 of the 132 seats, whilst the ruling Fatah received 41.43% of the vote and won 45 seats.[1]'

Fatah was in power when the election was held. The vote was split fairly equally between them and Hamas. So Hamas was doing a pretty bad job making sure it was a foregone conclusion weren't they? Also that would be tricky since they weren't in power at the time.

If you literally know nothing about the 2006 election maybe you could try not commenting on it?

2006 Palestinian legislative election - Wikipedia

Ok, but 65% of the popualtion of Gaza is under 25 - so there is a very real sense in which very few of the people who live in Gaza right now voted for Hamas back in 2006.