I understand why they are so set on destroying Hamas

[FebruaryOnMyMind]

Having seen the stories of the women and girls raped at the festival (reportedly over their dead friends bodies) and the people taken off as hostage; I understand why Israel want to destroy Hamas. They have said that Hamas militants are dead men. They have said that they will go after them. The worst killing of Jewish people since the Holocaust and their 9/11 with death toll of over 1300 people.

The story of the women at the Music and Peace festival is here -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12623023/Israeli-girls-raped-friends-bodies-Hamas-terrorists-carried-second-Holocaust-British-relatives-reveal-condemn-celebrated-atrocities-Gaza-Iran-London.html

Yet some people celebrated when the killings of Jewish people (they were from many different countries) at the festival was announced.

I feel sadness for everything going on in the middle east and for all the people who are innocent are are dying. Terrorists need to be stopped.

Wow. Just wow!

What a way to blatantly minimise PIRAs brutality! Yes, PIRA were not as efficient at murdering people as their friends Hamas are....but PIRA did shoot kids! Deliberately.

An awful, horrifying example of that is Nivruti Islania who was just six months old when she was shot in the head by the IRA while in her father's car in West Germany in 1989.

Other kids were murdered by PIRA, including via bombings. Again, deliberately.

A Catholic child called Bernard Teggart, 15-year-old boy said to have a mental age of an eight or nine-year-old, was abducted from St Patrick's Training School in west Belfast in 1973. He was shot in the head by PIRA. His father Danny had been shot dead by the Parachute Regiment in Ballymurphy in 1971, along with 10 others.

PIRA also forced people to become human bombs. In October 1990, Patsy Gillespie was abducted from his home by the IRA. His family were told he would be back soon, while being held at gunpoint. Patsy was then chained to the driver’s seat of a van filled with explosives and forced at gunpoint to drive that van to a nearby Army base. The IRA then remotely detonated the bomb, killing Patsy and five soldiers.

I don't know how you had the GALL to claim PIRA "had some standards" and that they "wouldn't shoot your kids"!

As for the British Government talking to PIRA, no they didn't find PIRA reasonable at all in 1972 or the rest of the 1970s!

In fact, talks only produced a political settlement when PIRA was defeated. PIRA rejected Sunningdale 1973 and Anglo-Irish Agreement 1985 yet accepted Belfast Agreement 1998 which had many of the SAME provisions as the earlier ones PIRA said no Republican or Nationalist could accept! They ended up accepting the same bloody conditions as available in 1973.

No, a terrorist group must be defeated before political settlements can be achieved.

The UN are pointing out that Isreal’s siege is against international law.

Yes, and not only illegal, but a crime against humanity.

“Besides this appalling language that dehumanises the Palestinian people, especially those who have been unlawfully “imprisoned” in Gaza for 16 years, we condemn the withholding of essential supplies such as food, water, electricity and medicines. Such actions will precipitate a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza, where its population is now at inescapable risk of starvation. Intentional starvation is a crime against humanity,” the experts said.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/israeloccupied-palestinian-territory-un-experts-deplore-attacks-civilians

You might be Basque, but it's clear you don't really have much knowledge about the international terrorist network. After all, you had no idea Iran also backed ETA!

See my attachment which is from 1994. British intelligence spent a year tracking PIRAs links with Iran which also discovered the other groups the Iranians were supporting.

As for Hamas, I'm afraid you don't really know what you're talking about.

The UN states Hamas AND the Palestinian Authority use children as soldiers.

"Both the PA and Hamas routinely indoctrinate Palestinian children to aspire to martyrdom through armed confrontations with Israel. According to Palestinian Media Watch (PMW), “the PA operates a systematic and institutionalized policy and program to recruit child soldiers/terrorists.”

In its reports to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) on this issue, PMW accused the PA of indoctrinating Palestinian children to admire and emulate terrorists and noted that “The PA openly admits, that the child terrorists are not acting in a vacuum, but rather they consider them to be the PA’s soldiers who the PA has sent to carry out a mission.”

The United Nations below:

"PA television (TV) broadcast quizzes children on songs with “value and meanings” which PA considers expression of Palestinian “national identity.” One of the songs depicts Israel as the “enemy” and encourages armed attacks: “I'm coming with my rifle… I'm coming towards you, my enemy… with cleavers and knives.” (January 2021).

• Official PA TV children’s program commemorated cartoonist Naji al-Ala, by sharing several cartoons encouraging violence among children, including one where Fatima (Palestinian woman cartoon character) presents an AK47 to Handala (the Palestinian refugee cartoon character) and one of her handing rocks to children. (August 2020).

• Fatah Facebook page promotes child soldiers by sharing video of Jordanian boy in military uniform holding slingshot and rifle. He wants to “shoot Jews” who killed terrorist Omar Abu Laila (killed Israeli soldier, stole his weapon and shot to death Israeli father of 12). (February 2020).

• Hamas TV children’s program interviews young children dressed in military fatigues. One child says he wants to be an engineer when he grows up “so that I can blow up the Jews.” The child host responds “Keep waging Jihad…when you grow up you will wage resistance against the Jews…” (September 4, 2015).

More from the United Nations:

"In addition, PA and Hamas educational programs routinely portray terrorists as role models and incite children to violence. For example, every year Hamas runs summer camps in which it trains children in military tactics and weapons use.

Likewise, summer camps run by Fatah and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) teach children to venerate famous Palestinian martyrs like Abu Jihad, who was responsible for terror attacks in which 125 Israelis were killed.

Therefore, it is no surprise that Palestinian children perpetrate violent attacks against Israelis and participate in violent confrontations with the goal of harming Israeli soldiers and civilians."

There is absolutely NO doubt that Palestinian children ARE taught to hate Israelis. Even worse, they're TRAINED to murder Israelis!

My mate at uni attended a very conservative Jewish secondary school, in Australia. The day after Bush invaded Iraq (in 1990) the entire student body were chanting 'Kill the Arabs!' The teachers did nothing.

I think there's been a pretty effective 'dehumanisation of the other' program operating for quite sometime among the children of both these populations.

Would you kindly link that to some kind of evidence please? There is no way any Australian teachers stood by potentially with Muslim children in the class and did nothing. Nor can I imagine any child saying that in Australia.

So what do you think of the Saudi led peace agreement that was very close to a peaceful resolution with Israel and the US before this happened? If Israel are not prepared to come up with a solution why were they there at the table?

Israel have been remarkably restrained given the provocation and the open racism and hate they have had to live with.

What would you expect to happen if a small fraction attempted such a thing in a nearby Arab state for instance? I can tell you now they would be blown to smithereens in less than 24h and that would be the end of it. Closed down immediately. That’s why you don’t see it very often.

I have spent a lot of time in the Middle East. Leniency is received as weakness. Death can be seen as martyrdom and we have to really understand the differences.

@1jan2020 how can you say that 2.2 million people should be obliterated, what is actually wrong with you?

I'm massively oversimplifying, of course. Don't get me wrong - I think PIRA are scumbag. But the people who wanted to terrorise had to keep predending to their recruitment pool that they were only after 'legitimate targets' or they wouldn't have had enough support amongst the local population. It's well know that the main reason for the peace process was that the various terrorist organisations had lost their grassroots support. Sure, It's frustrating to listen to deluded followers saying 'I'm so upset that bomb I was carrying went off early and killed those children', but people seem to really believe it.

Also, for context, I was replying to a poster trying to claim "the British negotiated with PIRA so why can't the Israeli's negotiate?" Which is ridiculous. Nothing like the violence of what Hamas just did has happened in Ireland since the seventeenth century. I think we should save our condemnation of PIRA for the "PIRA bad" threads.

Before I can accept that "both sides do this as much as the other", which is the clear implication, I'm going to need more than an account from octaurpus on Mumsnet whose friend in Australia claims to have seen kids shouting something in an obscure school 33 years ago.

What is obvious here is that many pp are very happy to corrupt the facts.

What did Hamas expect exactly when they ordered this massacre?

What Hamas have done is beyond evil but i do suspect this is exactly what Hamas wanted.

The expulsion of 1.1m people within 24hrs from North to South Gaza will lead to a huge death toll, either through the exodus of peoples or when the IDF go into Gaza.

Seems to me that Israel want to remove the Palestinians from Gaza, pushing them back either into Egypt or as far south as possible.

The whole conflict has been circular since the 1940s

You ll have to show me the evidence that IDF soldiers went into Gaza, raping beheading, torturing Palestinian civilians, women, children, machine gunning babies.

The awful violence now in Gaza is as a direct response to Hamas, they choose to attack a music festival, killing over 260 young people in the most barbaric way.

Had they not attacked Israel, then all the deaths in Gaza would never have happened.

Lastchanceechia and SurprisedWithAHorse You may not be able to imagine this incident taking place in an Australian school, but that has no relevance as to whether the incident actually occurred. Apologies it was '33 years ago' - I can't help my age! I was very close to this friend at the time (as a law student in the 90s), and for many years after. She herself was extremely disturbed by the anecdote she recounted. I said in my previous post that she attended a 'conservative Jewish secondary school' - all students were Jewish, so I'm not sure where pp got the idea there would potentially have been Muslim students in attendance. All teachers were Jewish. My friend and I were discussing the conflict, and as she was a brilliantly intelligent young woman from a deeply conservative Jewish community, and I was not, I was very interested in her perspective.

Some of these young people go on to do military service in Israel, as permitted by the Australian government.

Indeed the poster conviently forgets the points you make.

Indeed I dont imagine Hamas thought that there were be no response.

Actions have consequences Hamas.

like every war ever it’s a fucking mess

What’s worse ? Gang rape versus being crushed under rubble and a hospital with no power

Anyway noones winning here

So the method of killing babies is more important than the fact that they are killed on both sides?

The UN seems to believe that war crimes have been committed by Israel's soldiers - and I don't think this is the first time in recent years this has been claimed - hey they are obviously the right kind of war crime

Indeed. Hamas tunnel and are able to get weapons in as required, shame they don't use the billions in aid on food, medicines and to make the lives of Palestinian people better. Just more and more weapons. The 5000 missiles launched into Israel on the night of their massive attack are expensive. Hamas don't care who dies they are evil.

You are trying to convince us that Jews routinely radicalise their children to be murderous towards Arabs based on your second hand account: something that you didn't witness that supposedly happened 33 years ago in an obscure school somewhere in Australia.

Try harder.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2023/oct/12/ben-jennings-deadly-cycle-violence-middle-east-cartoon?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

No it didn't start in the 1940's. Long before that.

People are saying that the motivation for it matters. You do know that. That's why in normal life, someone who accidentally hits a child with their car may not be even charged with anything. Whereas someone who intentionally kills them will hopefully be imprisoned for life. This is the same difference, applied to groups.