I understand why they are so set on destroying Hamas

[FebruaryOnMyMind]

Having seen the stories of the women and girls raped at the festival (reportedly over their dead friends bodies) and the people taken off as hostage; I understand why Israel want to destroy Hamas. They have said that Hamas militants are dead men. They have said that they will go after them. The worst killing of Jewish people since the Holocaust and their 9/11 with death toll of over 1300 people.

The story of the women at the Music and Peace festival is here -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12623023/Israeli-girls-raped-friends-bodies-Hamas-terrorists-carried-second-Holocaust-British-relatives-reveal-condemn-celebrated-atrocities-Gaza-Iran-London.html

Yet some people celebrated when the killings of Jewish people (they were from many different countries) at the festival was announced.

I feel sadness for everything going on in the middle east and for all the people who are innocent are are dying. Terrorists need to be stopped.

That is interesting and the BBC News at Ten tonight alluded to US influence being brought to bear on Israel in a similar vein.

Quite rightly Israel will still proceed into Gaza to neutralise Hamas, though I sense it will be with the understanding that IHL must inherently adhered to where possible.

At this point I don’t think Israel have any choice now but to secure the whole area as far as possible, and that will almost certainly include a land invasion. Hamas knew this when they unleashed a massacre. This was a carefully orchestrated decision to murder Israelis en masse in the most brutal way.

There is no excuse for such depravity and the Palestinians need to hold Hamas accountable for what happens next.

its adding nothing to the debate.

Nuanced debate enters the thread.

You understand that we can Google too right? And we do already.

It might not add to you but might do to others who want to read about the other side of the story 🤷🏻‍♀️ it’s an open forum. Think as long as people stick to the rules they can post whatever they want

Please read a bit of history because Hamas have also repeatedly supported the two state solution to Israel and been refused.

In 2006 after the Gaza election, Hamas leader sent a letter addressed to George W. Bush where he among other things declared that Hamas would accept a state on the 1967 borders including a truce. However, the Bush administration did not reply.

In July 2009, Khaled Mashal, Hamas's political bureau chief, stated Hamas's willingness to cooperate with a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict, which included a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders, provided that Palestinian refugees be given the right to return to Israel and that East Jerusalem be recognized as the new state's capital.

In March 2012 Mahmoud Abbas stated that there were no political differences between Hamas and Fatah as they had reached agreement on a joint political platform and on a truce with Israel. Commenting on relations with Hamas, Abbas revealed in an interview with Al Jazeera that "We agreed that the period of calm would be not only in the Gaza Strip, but also in the West Bank," adding that "We also agreed on a peaceful popular resistance [against Israel], the establishment of a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders and that the peace talks would continue if Israel halted settlement construction and accepted our conditions."

March 2015, Netanyahu PM of Israel declared that a Palestinian state would not be established during his administration (he is still PM)

The 2017 Hamas charter presented the Palestinian state being based on the 1967 borders. The text says "Hamas considers the establishment of a Palestinian state, sovereign and complete, on the basis of the June 4, 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital and the provision for all the refugees to return to their homeland."

Between 2018 and 2019, Hamas participated in "the Great March of Return" along the Gaza border with Israel. The 2018–2019 Gaza border protests, also known as the Great March of Return (Arabic: مسیرة العودة الكبرى, romanized: Masīra al-ʿawda al-kubrā), were a series of demonstrations held each Friday in the Gaza Strip near the Gaza-Israel border from 30 March 2018 until 27 December 2019, during which a total of 223 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces. In late February 2019, a United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission found that of the 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analyzed, only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces. The commission deemed the rest of the cases illegal, and concluded with a recommendation calling on Israel to examine whether war crimes or crimes against humanity had been committed, and if so, to bring those responsible to trial.

In 2021, after tensions escalated in Sheikh Jarrah and the al-Aqsa mosque compound in Jerusalem, Israel and Hamas clashed in Gaza once again. After eleven days of fighting, at least 243 people were killed in Gaza and 12 in Israel. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/18/israeli-forces-storm-rally-in-support-of-prophet-at-al-aqsa

Public opinion has generally been in favour of a two state solution
“In a 2002 poll conducted by PIPA, 72% of both Palestinians and Israelis supported at that time a peace settlement based on the 1967 borders so long as each group could be reassured that the other side would be cooperative in making the necessary concessions for such a settlement.[59]

A 2013 Gallup poll found 70% of Palestinians in the West Bank and 48% of Palestinians in Gaza Strip, together with 52% of Israelis supporting "an independent Palestinian state together with the state of Israel"

Hamas did offer to stop attacks on civilians if Israel would do the same shortly before taking over Gaza and the Israeli response was to assassinate the Hamas leader that made the offer

”According to Tristan Dunning, Israel has never responded to repeated offers by Hamas over subsequent years for a quid pro quo moratorium on attacks against civilians'.[137] It has engaged in several tadi'a (periods of calm), and proposed a number of ceasefires.[137] In January 2004, Hamas leader Ahmed Yassin, prior to his assassination, said that the group would end armed resistance against Israel for a 10-year hudna.[l] in exchange for a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem, and that restoring Palestinians' "historical rights" (relating to the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight) "would be left for future generations". His views were quickly echoed by senior Hamas official Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, who added that Hamas envisaged a "phased liberation".[139] Israel's response was to assassinate Yassin in March in a targeted Israeli air strike, and then al-Rantisi in a similar air strike in April.[140]”

Egypt has closed its border crossing because Israel attacked it last week

If anything, Russia is more likely looking at the long game. Without some regional influence it is nothing as a powerful state any more.

The last thing Russia wants is a Gulf region that moves towards a West / Israel / KSA understanding. That blocks off a major part of its expansion plans to create a new order. The Middle East is where the tangible wealth is (as opposed to intangible which is mainly US). Russia only understands tangible wealth - oil, gas, commodities, minerals. Its only intangible successes are in cyber crime which is a hollow victory. This is why the ME is so important to Russia.

If Russia has any part to play, it is in blocking the Gulf Region via KSA from deeper relationships, rather than alleviating its injuries in Ukraine. Whether it has the bandwidth to do all these things is an interesting question.

Yes bombed it three times in 24hrs.

Even if they hadn’t, they won’t allow people out because they say they worry Israel will colonise the area if the population leaves.

There is simply no comparison between Hamas and the IRA. The IRA had some standards - they would shoot you dead in front of your kids, but they wouldn't shoot your kids. They shot quite a few Catholic kids, but "only" in the knee caps. We know now that the British government were talking to them all along because they found the leaders intelligent and possible to have a rational discussion with. The Irish just aren't a very violent people.

Seems like hamas is willing to release hostages as long as Palestinian prisioners are released. As some of you have said , easy then? Sure those 5k palenstinian belong to hamas, they can start releasing them and giving the water and electricity back to Gaza, why aren’t they doing it ? Don’t do they care about the hostages?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/qatar-leads-talks-swap-hamas-held-hostages-palestinians-israeli-jails-2023-10-09/

or is it cuz they don’t give a shit about Palestinian kids and the hostages?
https://news.sky.com/video/were-fighting-nazis-former-israeli-prime-minister-defends-cutting-off-energy-to-gaza-strip-12983288

I have read a number of articles which are more sophisticated than your reasoning.

Egypt closed its main border crossing because - following Saturdays event you must understand - both Egypt and Israel carried out deeper due diligence on Hamas' tunnelling network close to the crossing. Tunnels spring up very frequently to smuggle weapons so it is natural gain intelligence updates. By mutual acceptance, Israel bombed the tunnels but in order to protect lives the crossing was closed.

You just need to replace 'because' with 'allowing'.

By the same standard?

You think Israel took its prisoners in the same manner that Hamas took theirs?

There's no reasoning with you.

So the border is not opened and people can’t get out of Gaza.

They didn’t so much as “give” Gaza to the Palestinians as designate a reservation for Palestinians to flee to as they forcefully expelled them from their lands and homes in the West Bank and Jerusalem- hence the population density and constant refugee camps. When Israel pulled out of Gaza, they built a massive concrete wall around it and started controlling all movement of people, goods, water, food, electricity, fuel and humanitarian aid. The Rafah border with Egypt is also incredibly hard to move through.
”Israel, which controls most of Gaza’s electricity, its water, fuel and some of its food, already imposes a strict land, sea and air blockade on Gaza, but used to allow some trade and humanitarian assistance through the two crossings that it controls. The United Nations Secretary General Antonio Guterres on Monday warned that the humanitarian situation in Gaza was already “extremely dire before these hostilities” and “now it will only deteriorate exponentially.”

Israel on Thursday said it has dropped 6,000 bombs weighing 4,000 tonnes on Gaza in the past six days, killing more than 1,400 people.

While the world’s focus has been fixed on events in Gaza and Israel, tensions in the occupied West Bank are also at a boiling point with an Israeli lockdown in place and Israeli settlers killing several Palestinians in a series of attacks over the past week. On Thursday, a Palestinian father and his son were shot dead by Israeli settlers and soldiers while taking part in a funeral procession held for four Palestinians killed in a settler attack the day before.

No the border is shut because Egypt does not want Palestinians to move there.

Perhaps there is a shortage of real estate. Maybe not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neom

This is so wrong , can you imagine any other country doing this in the world? Why are western countries allowing Israel to do this with no punishment
https://twitter.com/hrw/status/1712573871596187916

This is not what is being reported. It appears that Egypt wants to send humanitarian aid through, but will not allow Gaza residents to flee Gaza. Israel doesn’t want humanitarian aid getting in, so is bombing it despite Egypt asking them not to.

”With the current Israeli siege, the only corridor through which Palestinians or aid can pass in and out of Gaza is the Rafah Crossing, which connects Gaza to Egypt. Egypt on Thursday denied reports of the crossing being closed, saying it has however sustained damage due to repeated Israeli airstrikes on the Palestinian side of the border.”
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/gaza-international-relief-rafah-crossing-egypt-intl/index.html

And
“Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi called on Thursday for humanitarian relief to be provided to Palestinians inside the Gaza Strip.”

“Egypt has said it wants to facilitate the delivery of aid through its Rafah crossing, but has also signaled its rejection of Gaza residents being forced south across the border.”
“Israel, which is retaliating for a deadly incursion by Hamas gunmen into Israel, said on Thursday there would be no humanitarian break to its siege of Gaza until all its hostages were freed.““The nearby Rafah crossing between Sinai and Gaza remained open, the Egyptian foreign ministry said in a statement, adding that Egypt had asked Israel to avoid targeting the Palestinian side of the crossing after strikes that prevented normal operations there.”https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4601056-egypt-pushes-deliveries-aid-gaza

Your view is not supported by human rights groups like Amnesty international or human rights watch whose researchers say that the “warnings” are not consistent and the knock on the roof thing is not meaningful when people are surrounded by sounds of war. The UN are pointing out that Isreal’s siege is against international law. Hence the large numbers of innocents that die when Israel attacks Gaza. I don’t think they care about killing children at all actually. Children are killed at the hands of Israeli military in the Occupied Palestinian Territories all the time all in the name of security.

Because
“The United States has vetoed dozens of United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions critical of Israel, including at least 53 since 1972, according to UN data.” (As of May 2021)
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/19/a-history-of-the-us-blocking-un-resolutions-against-israel

Which means Israel is never formally criticised by the UN for war crimes or crimes against humanity.

Israel is also not a member of the ICC (International Criminal Court) for war crimes and crimes against humanity and refuses to cooperate or recognise its authority although the Palestinians joined as new members in 2015. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-56687437

I hope they are obliterated from the earth. Having read about all the atrocities they have committed on babies, children, women and elderly people, they are evil personified.

I do not THINK that, I KNOW it - I was, literally, there in the room when the IDF burst in in the middle of a nice family dinner with guests, arrested everyone (myself included - but I have a British passport, and that is REALLY helpful in terms of "getting released first as soon as they figure it out") and took and kept the two teenage sons in "administrative detention" for years.

"Administrative detention" is "state of Israel" for "we probably do not have even half a leg to stand on and would hence prefer for this not to go to court - but we are, like, totally putting you into prison anyway".

How is taking two boys from a peaceful family dinner and putting them into prison for years - without access to lawyers or a trial - not just "kidnapping civilians, but we are a fully-fledged state and will just pretend this is due process", though?

For the record: those boys DID throw stones at tanks! I know that! I saw them do it! Also: in my book, I do not see how that is even a remote threat to a fully-fledged battle tank! But they never injured, never mind killed anyone. Never mind Israeli civilians. They probably never even left the town they were born in! That is NOT a reason to imprison people - never mind minors! - without trial for years!

Again: how is that NOT "kidnapping - but we are from the state"?!

Yeah there is loads of hypocrisy around the western countries. Several countries have banned marches in favour of Palestina. Uk doesn’t allow anymore the Palestinian flag to be waved. Can you imagine if this happened about the Ukrainian one? Yeah me neither … politicians are hypocrites