I understand why they are so set on destroying Hamas

[FebruaryOnMyMind]

Having seen the stories of the women and girls raped at the festival (reportedly over their dead friends bodies) and the people taken off as hostage; I understand why Israel want to destroy Hamas. They have said that Hamas militants are dead men. They have said that they will go after them. The worst killing of Jewish people since the Holocaust and their 9/11 with death toll of over 1300 people.

The story of the women at the Music and Peace festival is here -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12623023/Israeli-girls-raped-friends-bodies-Hamas-terrorists-carried-second-Holocaust-British-relatives-reveal-condemn-celebrated-atrocities-Gaza-Iran-London.html

Yet some people celebrated when the killings of Jewish people (they were from many different countries) at the festival was announced.

I feel sadness for everything going on in the middle east and for all the people who are innocent are are dying. Terrorists need to be stopped.

Where did you get the impression from what I wrote that this radicalisation is 'routine'?

Are you incapable of separating Hamas and Palestinian civilians? What Hamas did was horrendous but it just not justify Israel murdering 500 innocent children. They are just as bad a Hamas.

It's not really about which is a worse way to die. Although 'gang rape' is a minimization of what will be done to some of the hostages anyway. It's about the motives of those killing you.

People do win wars, all the time. I don't believe this one can be won in the long term because the Jews are completely surrounded by Islamic countries and the American empire is failing. But people can and do win wars. That's why you're not speaking German.

"We tried to take their land, and they took more of ours"; "We killed some of their people and they killed even more of ours"
It's like somebody saying "I borrowed some money from a Jew and they wanted to back with interest - why the interest? why are they so mean? I'm poor, I can't pay!". So be more responsible with money and stop borrowing from your neighbours!

My comment above was for SurprisedWithAHorse

Murder requires intent. The Israelis are claiming, as you know, that they're doing everything they can to avoid killing civilians.

Yeah, 24 hours notice to evacuate 1.1 million people isn't protecting civilians. It's giving them a time stamp on their life. Evacuation of that size just isn't possible! @Pollyputhekettleon

It's the very clear implication about dehumanisation on both sides, as if your unwitnessed, obscure, 33-year-old supposed event was in any way equal to what's happening now or indeed since it supposedly happened.

Just stop playing dumb. And drop the "some of my best friends are Jewish, in fact my good Jewish friend was horrified by this" stuff as well.

But it happened? I have several Jewish friends. I was friends with the one I referenced for many years. She was horrified by the incident she recounted to me. Some of her peers went on to serve in the IDF, which is permitted by the Australian government.

I have recounted the anecodote on this thread, where it has been suggested that Palestinian children are uniquely conditioned to hate. I had an experience which suggests otherwise.

There IS dehumanisation on both sides. I'm not 'implying' anything.

Israel may say they are trying to avoid killings civilians but they are clearing not

You are implying more and more every time you post about your Jewish friends and the obscure 33 year old event you didn't see and it only gets worse.

And you're entitled to that view. But to describe it as murder means you're literally claiming they're doing the opposite - that they're deliberately trying to kill civilians including children. You can't prove that, any more than the pro-Israelis can prove they're doing everything possible to not kill civilians.

This is very similar to when someone says Afghan women are oppressed and someone else responds that there's misogyny in England too. There obviously are Jewish children who have been taught to hate Arabs, or indeed any non-Jew. There are fanatics. The relevant question is what proportion of the population they are, compared to their proportion of the population in, say, Gaza. From what I've seen of behaviour on both sides, reports on the Gazan education system, and opinion polls on the views of Gazans, there's far more of it on the Gazan side.

Not according the the UN who say both Hamas and Israel are committing war crimes.

You do know that there are Jewish activists who are anti-Zionists, and abhor the behaviour of the Israeli Government towards the Palestinians? And that some of these Jews actually live in Israel?

Pollyputhekettleon I have absolutely no doubt there are more extremists on the Gazan side. Given the conditions under which they live and all.

Firstly committing war crimes is not the same thing as murdering people. Secondly people really shouldn't be quoting the UN as an authority on anything in 2023. You'll never understand the world if you treat them as an authority.

The Israeli soldiers than patrol the borders have done unspeakable things to Palestinians over the years, with no come back. Then you get regular civilians, everyday men who see things happen to them or their family and think 'fuck this' and join Hamas. Hamas are not just full of evil terrorists (yes, what they have done is fucking vile) it's also full of everyday family men who have had enough.

@FebruaryOnMyMind do you get this?

You can definitely prove that given their track record. They have targeted civilian buildings and family homes for years. Prior to these attacks there was a spike in Palestinian children being murdered. It isn't an accident. Their intent is obviously to murder civilians. What about when they are cutting electricity to NICU babies or starving children of water, is that accidental too?

This is a leftist dogma which is only ever applied to groups designated as oppressed. Human beings are not simply robotic products of their environment. They have free will, albeit often not a whole lot. I know you believe you have free will, I know you certainly act as though you do.

Individual humans suffer appalling abuse and neglect every day. Most of them will not grow up to be abusers themselves.

Many, many, probably all, groups of humans have suffered similarly at some points in their history. And, no, not all of them become extremists of any kind.

People do have choices, even under the most extreme conditions.

Tell me what the pro-Israeli response to this claim is:

'They have targeted civilian buildings and family homes for years'

Then prove to me they're wrong.

I don't understand why posters think everyone should pick a side. This isn't a football match or a playground argument.

I don't understand how everyone isn't utterly disgusted both by what happened to those poor people in Israel and utterly disgusted by what is happening to those poor people in Gaza. (And I'm meaning the Palestinian civilians, not Hamas before anyone suggests I am supporting them.)

How can anyone pick a side when it is innocent civilians who are paying such a terrible price for the actions of leaders.

Israeli and Palestinian children are both innocent. A child's life in Israeli has the same value as a child's life in Palestine.

Terrorist acts do not make war crimes acceptable. I understand the desire for vengeance but cannot condone the act of it.

My understanding is that it's basically a miracle that the State of Israel survived the original war to wipe it out. And Palestine has a lot of support across the Muslim world. That doesn't mean that everything Israel has done is right or that they're doing the right thing now, but I can understand where the "never again!" mentality comes from.

Did you know that back in 1938, the British offered both sides a partition that involved giving the Jews about 500 square miles of the Mandate land while the Arabs could have the rest? The Arabs still rejected it. They were opposed in principle to giving the Jews (who had always lived there) any sovereignty over any land which had been conquered by Islam. They wouldn't tolerate people who had been dhimmis, second class citizens, for centuries, being allowed to have their own state on Islamic lands where they would be guaranteed to never be systematically oppressed by their neighbours again.

The ideology of Hamas is a supremacist ideology that was not invented recently, it's not the lashing out of an unfortunate oppressed minority, it's the opposite.

The Peel Commission Report of 1937 - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com)

How have you concluded that the motive for both sides' behaviour is vengeance? You've surely read on here that both the pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli side would (almost entirely) deny that?