To not understand why the Palestinians did not put up solar panel farms

[emilysquest]

This may be naive in the extreme, but I was reading the reports this morning that Gaza will run out of power today, which is horrific. I dread to think what is going to happen now to those poor people.

This caused me to think: We happen to be in the process of making ourselves completely self-sufficient (off-grid) using solar panels (and some wind), and this is in Ireland, so not a sunny place like Palestine.

My question is, given the Gaza Strip was always dependent on power from Israel, which they regard (rightly) as a hostile country, why have they not in all the years sought to become self-sufficient (or at least more self-sufficient) with regard to power, to prevent the kind of blockade they are experiencing now?

Actually an allied question for those who know would be: travelling in eastern Europe recently, especially Bulgaria, there are huge solar farms everywhere. I have not been to the Middle East (well not since I was a baby), but do they use solar at all? It would seem to be an obvious choice given the climate.

@1dayatatime I get that, but surely every even vaguely successful military or paramilitary organisation is involved in not just fighting and weaponry but also very much in logistics ("an army fights on its stomach" etc). Logistics includes power. You need power/food/medical care not only for civilians but for your fighters.

And also, even if you don't give a fig about the Palestinian civilians per se, surely you want to maintain your population in order to continue to provide fighters? If the mothers and children all die in the siege, where is the next generation of jihadis coming from? It is really not as simplistic as some people have made out on this thread and I am trying to understand Hamas's longer-term (and past) strategy here, if that is possible.

@Simonjt Read my OP again. I was not suggesting (most) individuals would be able to buy themselves solar panels. Even in rich countries that is not the case. My question was about Hamas's strategy in provision of power to their population.

So you have zero sympathy for Palestians? Zero?

I think you are lying that you used to before as I've seen this new, " I used to support Palestine but not now", is the new Israeli propaganda as calling them animals and denying Israeli war crimes wasn't quite cutting it anymore with the western people.

Everyone should look and see this new rhetoric.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East

has becomel

They voted for Hamas they will now regret it

Complete denial of Israeli war crimes

Has become

I used to feel for the Palestians and be a reasonable person but not anymore, no sympathy

You can't just post bullshit and not get fact checked anymore, people are researching and not just watching the news at 10 to get their info.

When people start to get called out on this new, fake, I used to support Palestine... I wonder what the next hot phrase will be.

The Israelis will not allow all that cabling and electrical kit into Gaza. They would say it could be made into weapons.

BTW, reading my OP again, I did not actually say that I thought big solar farms would be feasible in Palestine, so maybe I am not as "stupid" as I confessed to being!

I mentioned two potential models of use of solar, big farms in eastern Europe, and my own solar and wind system powering just my property. PPs piling on me about how farms would be a military target (of course they would) is not entirely fair either.

My question of whether they use solar power at all has been answered in the affirmative by several PPs, so thanks to those who helped with that.

There's a lot of propaganda floating around at the moment. You can spot the Hasbara posters in amongst the genuine ones.

@Glitterdavies I absolutely support Palestine, where are you getting that I do not? I have taken part in marches against Israeli atrocities (note, not against the Israeli people) in various places in the world and my parents are very pro-Palestinian (as I said my dad was born in Palestine).

But pro the Palestinian people and their right to their land (which was stolen from them first by Britain and then by Israel). Not pro-Hamas* *(although it is precisely because this is all so complex, and I have an incomplete understanding of it that I asked my original question in the first place about how Hamas attends to infrastructure in Gaza).

Before anyone jumps on about my being antisemitic, I'm not.

There's a racist undercurrent running through these threads that all Palestinians are for Hamas and they are breeding and giving up their children to kill Jews.

This is being put out there so that when you see Israeli soliders killing children you will think in the back of your mind that they would have been jihadi's anyways so...

I bet Hamas are thinking the same about the Israeli citizens since they all have to do national service and be reservists, they are all potential soldiers so...

When does it end!

Look back over the last 4 years and see how many Israeli soldiers have gotten away will killing children, not innocent people in general, just look at the numbers of children.

Look at how many children have been set on fire by settlers and see how they are not brought to justice by the Israeli criminal courts.

Where was the fucking outrage then?

Where were these Israelis that felt sorry for the Palestinians?

This was not for you but for someone else upthread you can see it. They said they used to feel sorry but no more sympathy.
Clearly they had none to being with.

Supporting Palestine and waving a flag is not supporting Hamas, the same as supporting Israel outside of downing Street and waving a flag is not supporting Israeli war crimes.

If it can mean that for Israeli support then it can mean that for Palestinian support.

My post about "why would Hamas not want to keep the mothers alive to breed fighters" was not meant to support that aim. I as pointing out that if their aim is. as I presume it must be, to win a long war, they won't do so by having no infrastructure and no fighters. My whole point is that from their point of view (not mine) it doesn't seem to make sense not to have invested in logistics over the past decades. Underuse of sustainable energy systems was an example of that. (Although, as some people have enlightened me, I see there are very good practical reasons which may have made this nigh impossible to do).

@Glitterdavies I agree.

I think you make a really good point.

You are being influenced by what you are seeing.

I always make the point about the media in terms of getting into the habit of considering what you are not seeing and why are you not seeing it?

It's relevant.

WHAT!!!

it's the where and when of the flag waving!

You're being disingenuous linking the 2 together!

So you think it's just coincidence that the day after Hamas committed those atrocities, thousands of Palestinians descended on some of our cities and waved their flag? You don't think that's celebrating what Hamas did?

Come on!!

And I've not seen anyone on this thread say they have zero sympathy for the people in Gaza. It's just hell all round.

Apologies, I guess I did say "farms" in my title. I was not really thinking of huge Bulgarian style acres-wide areas, but I didn't make that clear. I call my own power system a "farm" too, because it's a few panels and batteries not just a single roof panel.

To be fair, I think some of the Palestinian flag-bearers (by no means all) are trying to show solidarity for the Palestinian people, not celebrate war crimes.

My problem is ultimately with the flag - it's an endorsement of the Israeli government if a government is hoisting it in support. It's officialdom. And it's without cavet about the actions of the government. That sends a diplomatic message.

It's different if it's an individual hoisting a flag. There isn't the diplomatic considerations.

Keep in mind that Israel ISN'T a member of NATO but is an official NATO ally.

We have an issue in terms of arms supply and the power of Israel. Israel's relationship with Saudi Arabia is also relevant here. (And Saudis with Iran). Especially since the Ukrainian war has been stretching reserves.

Now would be an ideal time for China to be dicks (just saying)

I have to say, I find all of this terrifying. It's another front in a war of certain alliances and that's what should be scaring the shit out of everyone.

This isn't just about Palestine and Israel.

I get the very cynical feeling that increasingly the western attitude is that human rights aren't for everyone. They are only for 'the right people'.

And looking at that through that lens is fucking scary.

Because it can’t afford to.

People know exactly what's going to happen to innocent Palestians now so they are showing their support.

It's the same. If you can wave an Israeli flag whilst Israel are commit war crimes without it being in support of those war crimes - then people can do the same for Palestine

@RedToothBrush

Apologies I'm on App and can't reply to a reply. But yes I am very aware how the media machine works hence why I like threads on here so I can get different perspectives and references.

But sadly I was in the military during the Bosnian war and did 2 military tours there. I've seen first hand the horrendous atrocities men (and it's mostly always men) do to their "enemy".

I also saw how it was reported back home (UK) but it's slightly different now as we can see legitimate first hand accounts -
Twitter, Facebook, TikTok

Not of which was available during my military career and to be honest would have made my job much easier!

This conflict was never my area of expertise and lazily never researched too deeply. So I'm learning loads from threads like these.

Anyway said too much so I'm off to change my username AGAIN! I only changed it yesterday!

See ya on the other board ;)

People know exactly what's going to happen to innocent Palestians now so they are showing their support.

Ok I genuinely didn't think of this perspective. Thank you.

War is horrendous.

I'm not in the military, but going to places like Bosnia even ten years after a war is sobering enough for me.

We have NO idea in this country.

We need to do better. I do feel we are sleep walking into something much bigger.

I think you are overestimating what is possible in an open-air prison. Do you really think Israel would want or even allow them to be self-sufficient? Solar power won’t generate gas, which has now been shut off.

Solar use for electricity isn't actually great in very hot countries. The panels can't cope with the temperature.