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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand why the Palestinians did not put up solar panel farms

207 replies

emilysquest · 11/10/2023 08:18

This may be naive in the extreme, but I was reading the reports this morning that Gaza will run out of power today, which is horrific. I dread to think what is going to happen now to those poor people.

This caused me to think: We happen to be in the process of making ourselves completely self-sufficient (off-grid) using solar panels (and some wind), and this is in Ireland, so not a sunny place like Palestine.

My question is, given the Gaza Strip was always dependent on power from Israel, which they regard (rightly) as a hostile country, why have they not in all the years sought to become self-sufficient (or at least more self-sufficient) with regard to power, to prevent the kind of blockade they are experiencing now?

Actually an allied question for those who know would be: travelling in eastern Europe recently, especially Bulgaria, there are huge solar farms everywhere. I have not been to the Middle East (well not since I was a baby), but do they use solar at all? It would seem to be an obvious choice given the climate.

OP posts:
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Flamedmoth · 11/10/2023 09:58

The scale issue is a big one

Gaza for example is roughly the size of the Isle of Wight with 15 times the population, and 1/10 of the size of Cornwall but 4 times the population

YesterdaysGirl · 11/10/2023 10:01

Why do you think we are not attacking Russia? Because what they can fire at us is as heavy as what we can fire at them.

OP thanks for this thread I found it very interesting. Ignore PPs the baiting you, the ignorance on this thread is nuts. Particularly loving the quote above, shows you the level of understanding (I'm being kind) of some mumsnetters!!

I enjoy these kind of threads because you can hear and learn from both side. The water treatment plant info took me down a huge rabbit hole. I was trying to confirm that the Water treatment plant was indeed destroyed by the Hamas, but all I could find was an article from 2014 in The Economist saying that Israel had bombed vital water and sewerage infrastructure.

It would be helpful if posters could give references for some of the info, as there is so much shit out there!

On another note, it looks like UNICEF were installing a new desalination plant in Gaza back in 2017, I can't see if it was finished.

If someone could answer me a question please. I was going to start thread but thought I'd get hounded like you are OP.

The water and electricity that Israel are "cutting off" from Gaza. Is it Israels? Do they sell it to Gaza. Or are the literally cutting it off coming in from another country?

If it is Israel's, I don't understand why it's a war crime. Why would you give it to your enemy?

Absolutely it's horrible innocents will suffer but if your next door neighbour came round to your house kicked the shit out of you, murdered your dog and raped your daughter would you continue to give them water?

Of course you wouldn't! Didn't Russia cut off a lot of gas supplies (except where it wasn't economically viable for them) that's not a war crime?

If someone could explain I'd be grateful.

Justgivemeasec · 11/10/2023 10:12

IncomingTraffic · 11/10/2023 09:52

It’s how you ask the question though.

Positing a solution and saying that it seems obvious (and will also
solve climate change, as a bonus) doesn’t feel like genuine curiosity.

Especially in relation to a topic that is clearly extremely divisive.

I didn’t get the feeling the op was being disingenuous or goady in the op, just that she really didn’t have any idea of the situation/practicality- so what might be blatantly obvious to some people really wasn’t to her, thus she asked what a lot of people think is a ludicrous question.

Im always seeing questions on here that I can’t believe people don’t know, and then people giving the wrong answer with confidence (usually related to my field of work). A lot of people really really don’t know things… especially about the Middle East because it wasn’t a part of the curriculum when a lot of early middle aged people were at school- I’m nearing 40, have history and and politics a levels and a degree and masters in connected areas- I have learned EVERYTHING I know about the Middle East from my own reading etc.

BurrosTail · 11/10/2023 10:14

Because Israel has a long tradition of blocking Gaza from importing A LOT of stuff, ranging from weapons to building materials, tomato paste and coriander! Don’t think renewable energy components are anyhow in their plans, as it’s very convenient for Israel to have full control of Gaza’s energy.

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2023 10:16

Maybe because Israel has restricted numerous things from being allowed into the place - anything that could be deemed to be used by terrorists. Which includes a long list of building and construction materials.

I would be more surprised if solar panels weren't on a restricted list tbh!!

Your OP really highlights the lack of understanding of how the Israeli state has oppressed the Palestinians for years and why it's lead to radicalised Palestinians.

Neither party is free from responsibility.

I saw a comment about how we are forgetting our humanity over the situation - we are told to cry for one party over the other because 'terrorism'. We are told about how Israeli have died whilst Israel use phosphorus bombs on one of the most densely populated places on earth (phosphorus bombs are 'banned' under international treaties for their violations against humanity - treaties that Israel has refused to sign up to. Why because you can't control who you hit, they burn through structures and if they don't kill you they leave you with horrific injuries). A densely populated area where 50% of the inhabitants are children.

It's all fucked in the head.

I saw this comment on twitter which is one of the most balanced, I've seen. It's from an opinion piece in an Israeli newspaper from someone who is Jewish.

Glenn Diesen AT glen_diesen
Gideon Levy writing about our common humanity in Haaretz: "We now have to cry bitterly for the Israeli victims, but we should also cry for Gaza":

"Behind all this lies Israeli arrogance; the idea that we can do whatever we like, that we’ll never pay the price and be punished for it. We’ll carry on undisturbed. We’ll arrest, kill, harass, dispossess and protect the settlers busy with their pogroms. We'll visit Joseph’s Tomb, Othniel’s Tomb and Joshua’s Altar in the Palestinian territories, and of course the Temple Mount – over 5,000 Jews on Sukkot alone.

We’ll fire at innocent people, take out people’s eyes and smash their faces, expel, confiscate, rob, grab people from their beds, carry out ethnic cleansing and of course continue with the unbelievable siege of the Gaza Strip, and everything will be all right.
We’ll transfer half an army from the Gaza border to the Hawara border in the West Bank, only to protect far-right lawmaker Zvi Sukkot and the settlers. And everything will be all right, both in Hawara and at the Erez crossing into Gaza.

It turns out that even the world's most sophisticated and expensive obstacle can be breached with a smoky old bulldozer when the motivation is great. This arrogant barrier can be crossed by bicycle and moped despite the billions poured into it and all the famous experts and fat-cat contractors.

We thought we’d continue to go down to Gaza, scatter a few crumbs in the form of tens of thousands of Israeli work permits – always contingent on good behavior – and still keep them in prison. We’ll make peace with Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates and the Palestinians will be forgotten until they’re erased, as quite a few Israelis would like.

We’ll keep holding thousands of Palestinian prisoners, sometimes without trial, most of them political prisoners. And we won’t agree to discuss their release even after they've been in prison for decades.

We’ll tell them that only by force will their prisoners see freedom. We thought we would arrogantly keep rejecting any attempt at a diplomatic solution, only because we don’t want to deal with all that, and everything would continue that way forever.

Once again it was proved that this isn’t how it is. A few hundred armed Palestinians breached the barrier and invaded Israel in a way no Israeli imagined was possible. A few hundred people proved that it’s impossible to imprison 2 million people forever without paying a cruel price.
Just as the smoky old Palestinian bulldozer tore through the world’s smartest barrier Saturday, it tore away at Israel’s arrogance and complacency. And that’s also how it tore away at the idea that it’s enough to occasionally attack Gaza with suicide drones – and sell them to half the world – to maintain security.

On Saturday, Israel saw pictures it has never seen before. Palestinian vehicles patrolling its cities, bike riders entering through the Gaza gates. These pictures tear away at that arrogance. The Gaza Palestinians have decided they’re willing to pay any price for a moment of freedom. Is there any hope in that? No. Will Israel learn its lesson? No.
On Saturday they were already talking about wiping out entire neighborhoods in Gaza, about occupying the Strip and punishing Gaza “as it has never been punished before.” But Israel hasn’t stopped punishing Gaza since 1948, not for a moment.

After 75 years of abuse, the worse possible scenario awaits it once again. The threats of “flattening Gaza” prove only one thing: We haven’t learned a thing. The arrogance is here to stay, even though Israel is paying a high price once again.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu bears very great responsibility for what happened, and he must pay the price, but it didn’t start with him and it won’t end after he goes. We now have to cry bitterly for the Israeli victims, but we should also cry for Gaza.

Apparently this guy is hated in Israel for saying this. But he speaks the truth - the unsayable.

Wars are the product of failed policy. They are what happens when politicians have failed.

Terrorism is usually the product of desperation. Where we get large numbers of people working together and taking it to the extreme it's because of a total loss of hope and lack of self determination through politics. Because of policy which has deliberately sort to exclude.

The West has a problem here with how we view ourselves and talk about democracy.

Democracy has failed the Palestinian people. Even with the voting in of Hamas' control of Gaza. Hamas were voted in, in 2007. There haven't been elections since. And Palestinian have no democratic influence in Israel which controls their border (and so much more of what happens to Palestinians).

I have no time for western politicians who are now cheerleading Israel 'because terrorism'. But equally I have no time for those who cheer on Hamas and condone what's it's done and doing because it is barbaric. Rape, beheadings, burning people to death, executions all barbaric.

The Israeli and Gaza leadership are rotten. I understand why they've done things but it's so fundamentally wrong in application. The Rest of the world has done fuck all to challenge the situation because it suits their own interests to do fuck all.

It's all so desparately appalling. It's children who bare the brunt of this. It doesn't matter how you die once you are dead. There is no 'humane' way to kill children.

Today's rhetoric from Israel: soon Gaza will be a tent city and they've released all restraints from troops.

What does that actually mean? Cos that doesn't really sound a lot like it's considering human rights or civilians does it?

They are all monsters.

Flamedmoth · 11/10/2023 10:17

Using republic of Ireland as a comparison, the population density

Gaza=6500 people per square km
Ireland =73 to 82 depending

You could put irelands entire population in Kildare and still have half the population density of gaza

feralunderclass · 11/10/2023 10:21

Apart from the logistics, Israel has always employed tactics to prevent any means of self determination within the Palestinians. So olive groves are burnt/razed to the ground, farms destroyed, land confiscated. So even if they had the space/money/resources there is no way Israel would allow it to remain and function.

VineRipened · 11/10/2023 10:23

OP, look at an aerial image of the Gaza Strip (25 x 5 miles) and circle all the areas you consider suitable for the ‘huge’ solar farms you envisage.

VineRipened · 11/10/2023 10:24

feralunderclass · 11/10/2023 10:21

Apart from the logistics, Israel has always employed tactics to prevent any means of self determination within the Palestinians. So olive groves are burnt/razed to the ground, farms destroyed, land confiscated. So even if they had the space/money/resources there is no way Israel would allow it to remain and function.

And water courses diverted away from Palestinian land.

InMySpareTime · 11/10/2023 10:39

When I visited this year, most rooftops had water tanks with solar water heating panels, which is a more practical use of solar power than electricity generation in a densely populated area.

SlothMama · 11/10/2023 10:50

What a stupid post, I think that they are a bit busy with what's been going on for decades to take the time to build a solar farm. Which would just get destroyed anyway?

emilysquest · 11/10/2023 10:55

@IncomingTraffic I did not say it seemed obvious. And where did I say anything about climate change? That was not mentioned. I was thinking about how a country/region/family could be more self-sufficient (you have no idea of the reasons I am doing this, I may not give a monkey's about climate change for all you know. In the case of Palestine I was thinking about not having to rely on their highly hostile neighbour, nothing to do with climate change).

@YesterdaysGirl thank you for the thoughtful post.

@RedToothBrush I admitted I did not fully understand the situation, that's why I was pondering the question. Much of what one reads about Israel/Palestine is from polarised sources and I am aware that can lead to poor understanding. I have opposed Israel's oppression of Palestinians all my life (my father was born in Palestine although he is neither Jewish/Israeli nor Palestinian, and my parents met each other in Lebanon, I am not entirely ignorant but do not have a detailed understanding of Middle Eastern politics and have never been to Palestine myself.)

OP posts:
YesterdaysGirl · 11/10/2023 10:56

Thanks, I've read some them. Interesting.

However I'd disregard any Grauniad or wiki info if I was you :)

emilysquest · 11/10/2023 10:59

@SlothMama I take your point, and others', about the danger of it being destroyed. That is precisely what I was expecting people to mention. But to say it's a "stupid post" because Hamas has been "too busy" to build basic infrastructure in decades is not entirely fair on me. The point is, WHY have they been too busy? What else have they been doing? And why? And with whose money/backing? Precisely my point.

OP posts:
PostOpOp · 11/10/2023 11:06

OP you're getting a lot of opinions. I'm going to bet that none of them have been to Gaza, ever.

Here are some facts, from the EU, from last year.

^ Some 2.45 million Palestinians, out of 5.2 million, need humanitarian assistance. In Gaza, the blockade, renewed conflict and political divisions have crippled the economy.
Due to the violence in May 2021, hundreds of Palestinians have died, including children benefitting from an EU-funded programme. More than 100,000 people have had to flee their homes.^
Over 80% of Gaza’s population is aid-dependent. They are trapped in a cycle of poverty, unemployment, and food insecurity.
Gazans have limited access to basic services such as medical care, safe water, electricity, and few educational or economic opportunities. COVID-19 restrictions have further worsened people’s living conditions and eroded their purchasing powers

And later

How are we helping?
In 2021, the EU provided close to €35 million in humanitarian funding for Palestinians in need, including funds to address emerging needs due to the coronavirus pandemic and the recent violence in Gaza.

^In the Gaza Strip, we provide vulnerable families with cash assistance, helping them cover their basic needs.
Our assistance includes protection, safe education for children, and health care.
Priority goes to improving care for victims of violence, including trauma care for the injured. Our funding also helps to upgrade water and sanitation services. It also better prepares the health system for a sudden surge in demand due to disasters, conflict or public health emergencies.^

The source:
reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/echo-factsheet-palestine-last-updated-10012022

Hamas is not one group. There's a political arm and a fighting arm. The political arm do social things, the fighting one are the tunnellers. Both obviously agree with the

PostOpOp · 11/10/2023 11:09

Sorry

..both obviously agree with destruction of Israel, but the idea that they're all frothing at the mouth hating Israel and not doing anything for the Gazans isn't true. Not least because just like their friends the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, they know that a great way to get more support is to be the ones providing help to people who need it.

I'm not a supporter of Hamas, any manifestation of it, I am a fan of facts though.

My advice to people if you want to know anything is NOT to ask now, because there's a lot of uninformed rubbish about. Search for pre-October 2023 information. There's lots out there.

BoomBoom70 · 11/10/2023 11:27

So cutting off a water supply is not a war crime. International humanitarian law (IHL) is a set of international laws that set out what can and cannot be done during an armed conflict. The main purpose of IHL rules is to maintain some humanity in armed conflicts, saving lives and reducing suffering.

Regarding other points, Hamas’ main objective is to destroy the state of Israel, so I imagine that installing solar panels come low on their list of priorities.

That said, it’s horrific. Horrible. No one deserves this.

Neverwatchedgameofthrones · 11/10/2023 11:42

OP - you aren't allowed to ask questions about this situation on mumsnet without someone getting upset at you. certain MN's love to argue with anyone about this to show how much better of a human being they are. No interest in educating, only in insulting. Sorry for the dickhead responses you've had, it's a sensible enough question that has been answered by half decent people.

roarrfeckingroar · 11/10/2023 11:48

Because Hamas are terrorists bent on killing all Jews (their charter). They're not in it to build infrastructure and protect ordinary people.

emilysquest · 11/10/2023 11:50

@InMySpareTime that is interesting. Thinking about it, I guess my thoughts of big solar farms like in Bulgaria for example is, to quote PPs "stupid", given the military target risk. Small individual roof panels therefore aren't unknown in the region? Funding an increase in these from humanitarian aid/World Bank projects etc surely is not as "stupid" then?

OP posts:
emilysquest · 11/10/2023 11:53

@roarrfeckingroar do you know, or does anyone else here: what is the real support level for Hamas/their goals among the ordinary man and woman in the Gaza street (or now, I guess, in the bombed-out shells of the street?). Genuine question, I am not being rhetorical.

OP posts:
1dayatatime · 11/10/2023 11:55

@emilysquest

"I am asking why their leaders did not over the last 20 years build some sustainable infrastructure. It's a completely different question."

+++

Because the Hamas Government is more interested in waging wars against Israel and Egypt through terrorist attacks than they are in mundane governmental stuff like generating electricity and other infrastructure.

Simonjt · 11/10/2023 11:57

A friend and his mother are Palestinian, they barely have enough food, where do you expect they find the money for solar power? What land do you expect they use, Palestine is incredibly densely populated, it isn’t field after field of unused land.

YesterdaysGirl · 11/10/2023 11:57

After seeing the media of scenes in London, Birmingham and Nottingham I would guess they're pretty well supported.

I used to sympathise with Palestinians (although my knowledge wasn't deep).

But now after seeing those scenes in my own country (UK), I feel more for the Israelis.

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