To be sickened by Hamas

[MindfullyAmazedHorse]

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens?

I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days.

It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them.

I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying.

I am struggling to process these recent events.

She didn't say it was an argument for ethnic cleansing. As of course you know. It is a good argument for why the Arabs should have allowed them to get 20% of the Mandate territory as their own state when the British proposed that in the 1930s. But the Arabs refused to allow it.

Unfortunately you said quite biased to the situation.

I understand this is a very problematic discussion but some of your points arent completely correct.

@Threemangoes

"Reality25
Hopefully the Conservatives crack-down on the terrorist sympathisers in this country."

Careful there.. Your xenophobic mask is slipping. You might wanna adjust that again

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Nah sorry but I have no problem with prosecuting terrorist sympathisers in the UK regardless of whichever terrorist group they sympathise with. Just surprised you think differently.

And to finish up your anti semetic mask appears to have fallen off so you might want to consider putting it back on again.

But what do you want us to do about it? No Western government is prepared to back an organisation who's stated aim is to wipe out the country next door. I've learnt absolutely nothing on this thread that I didn't know before about Israel's actions in Palestine. What can be done about it while Hamas refuse to recognise the State of Israel? Why, oh why, will you not answer that question.

Turkey and Qatar support and fund Hamas why aren't Israeli bombs raining down on them ?
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/10/10/u-s-wrong-to-involve-qatar-and-turkey-in-israeli-hostage-negotiations/

Qatar’s Hamas Ties

Hamas maintains its main office in Doha, where Haniyeh lives most of his time. Besides Iran, Hamas receives a large part of its funding from Doha, reportedly between $360 million and $480 million a year. Qatar uses a third of the subsidy to purchase fuel from Egypt and ship it to Gaza, where Hamas sells it and pockets the revenue. Another third goes to impoverished families, while the final third goes to pay the salaries of Hamas bureaucrats. This support allows Hamas to bankroll social services, therefore maintaining political support and prolonging its grip on power. Qatar’s state-sponsored media channel, Al-Jazeera, has justified Palestinian terrorism, spread antisemitism, and demonized Israel with its global reach.

@Denis44

You are changing the subject.

The question we were discussing was:

Do Palestinians living in Israel have equal rights to Jews - which they do. The point of this should have been for you to recognise that this is a good thing - that despite Jews having no such rights anywhere in Palestine, they give them to Arabs in Israel.

Now you are asking a COMPLETELY different question. So, okay, let's answer the new one.

Which is seemingly:

Do Palestinians in West Bank have free movement around West Bank? Or are they restricted by road blocks, checks etc? Do Palestinians in Gaza have access to their families and hospitals in West Bank? Do palestinians in West Bank have easy access to healthcare?

The answer to this entirely different question is no, the passage of Palestinian residents between and within these regions is controlled by Israel and there is no free passage between regions and medical institutions. Palestinian residents who need medical care outside of their region of residence require an exit permit from the Government of Israel. Is this shitty? Yes, but I would imagine if they stopped the terrorism that it would all be a lot easier.

Do Palestinians in Gaza have easy access to fish in their own waters? Are they free to set up an airport so they can import and export stuff?

No. Hamas uses fishing and other sea vessels to bring weapons and materials of war to harm Israel and has outright said they are working with Syria and Iran to plan attacks in Israel, hence the Israeli-imposed blockade. Likewise with import and export. Certainly there were initial plans at the time of pulling out of Gaza for it to become a free port (like a Singapore of the Middle East) with lovely hotels, an airport and seaside resort - but clearly Hamas had other plans.

Are they free even if they had resources to build hospitals, schools or is there a risk that these would be bombed anyway?

When Israel pulled out of Gaza, they left almost all public building in tact. Including schools, hospitals and so on. Hamas destroyed them. And when concrete was provided to them to build homes, they used it instead to build terrorist tunnels and bunkers for firing rockets to Tel Aviv. In the end the UN had to provide these facilities as best they could.

Can they choose to emigrate?

Israel doesn't stop them leaving - only entering Israel's space or accessing weapons with which to destroy Israel - which they have expressed is their intention. There is a door by Egypt, through which they are welcome to exit.

Do Israeli government subside Israelis to come and live near Gaza border and in West Bank and is there an agenda in this?

I've never heard this but it might be the case. Certainly I know housing is much cheaper.

Why has Israeli gov bombarded the border with Egypt?

I am not given military briefing but if you're asking me to guess I would say, so they could ensure Hamas can't escape into Egypt.

People in the uk can move and seek healthcare on other countries, loads of people go to turkey for dental care for instance. Are Palestinians free to do that or would they be likely denied a permit?

Can Gazans go to Turkey for medical care? You'd have to ask Turkey, plus the various countries they'd need to pass through. I am also not sure if their own government allows them to leave. You'd have to ask someone who knows more about that topic. It's certainly nothing whatsoever to do with Israel

Sneering and attempting to put me down as 'not understanding' your answer 🙄😁won't hoodwink people either.

It's not that I don't understand what you've written (I'm a native English speaker with an Oxbridge English degree, so can understand primary level English perfectly). It's that you haven't answered the question, but have instead gone ranting on in whataboutery.

And you've just done it again!

I'm going to afford you the courtesy of assuming you have the intelligence to understand what you were asked. So can you explain why you are avoiding answering it?

Or better still, just giving a straight answer?

It's not as though answering the question directly will rule you out from making any other points, so what do you have to lose?

If you are on here to convince people to your way of seeing things, this is an opportunity for you to convince. If you fail to engage and just rant off on a tangent, you will do the opposite.

To remind you, this is what you were asked:

Two sides disagree on something and have been fighting over it for a long time.

One side has shown previously it is willing to stop fighting and see if they can reach some sort of agreement on the issue . The other has said it will never negotiate under any circumstances and will accept nothing less than exactly what they want, no compromise.

Which side is being unreasonable?

What's your answer to this specific question?

Hamas' crimes are horrific.

So are Israel's.

Civilians, mostly women and children, are those who suffer ultimately. Isn't religion wonderful?

@Threemangoes

You refer to Gaza as an open air prison because the Israelis restrict movements to and from Gaza to Israel because it is used as a base from which terrorists attacked and continue to attack Israel.

Egypt has also restricted movements to and from Gaza to Egypt since 2012 because Gaza was and is used as a base from which terrorists attack Egyptians in Northern Sinai.

Any condemnation of Egypt as well?

Palestine is not part of Egypt.

You cannot make a false equivalence between the atrocities of Hamas and those of Israel. This seeks to deny the reality of the barbarity of what Hamas did. Please don't "both sides" this issue.

Same.

The comments are illustrative of the mindset among a certain sector of the hard left, it's not a typical leftist view.

I don't believe any of this is actually about religion - it's about power and land. Religion is just the excuse.

Sure hun.

Tell that to the Palestinians who have been oppressed, murdered and abused for decades.

It's not whataboutery. It's not false equivalence.

Hamas wouldn't exist if Israel didn't.

@Mooshamoo

The Nazis are also to blame for this

Hundreds of thousands of European jews went to live in Palestine during world war two, as they could not stay in Europe, or they would be killed. So they mass emigrated to Palestine

What the Nazis did is still causing problems today

I don't agree.

If Jews had been living with reasonable rights and not in degrading and dangerous circumstances almost everywhere then they would not have needed their own state in the first place. The antisemitism of the Nazis was present everywhere - including the Muslim world.

Immigration to Israel by the end of 1952 was broken down like this:

About 35,000 from Germany and Central Europe
About 307,000 from communist satellite state like Poland, Hungary, Romania
About 377.000 from the middle east

People don't want to leave their homes and property. They genuinely do not. The numbers above are telling, and are reflective of the reality that Jews were dealing with horrendous antisemitism in Eastern Europe (still so today that these places are very anti Jewish likely due to the soviet campaign of Jew hate) and from the Arab countries.

In the Arab countries they lived pretty grim lives for a very long time but from 1930 onwards it started to get unlivable and so they made the choice to move to a place where they had rights and could own land equally.

I don't blame the Nazis - I blame all the people who simply would not coexist with their fellow man equally and let them benefit from the same laws, same rights etc regardless of religion or ethnicity.

It's a mainstream leftist view.

Palestine is also not part of Israel, it is a state with its own government. Egypt has secured its border with Gaza, as has Israel. Both have done so for the same reason - to stop terrorists from Gaza entering their countries.

@LemonyTicket

Can they choose to emigrate?

Israel doesn't stop them leaving - only entering Israel's space or accessing weapons with which to destroy Israel - which they have expressed is their intention. There is a door by Egypt, through which they are welcome to exit.

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Actually Egypt has heavily restricted the border crossing at Rafah after Gaza based terrorists were using it as a base from which to launch terrorist attacks against Egyptians in Northern Sinai.

Curiously no one seems to want to "condemn" Egypt for this action.

@LemonyTicket

"Do Palestinians living in Israel have equal rights to Jews- which they do."

No, they don't. They absolutely bloody don't have equal rights. Not according to the UN and Amnesty International. Not according to anyone.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/06/rights-civil-society-members-are-being-violated-all-entities-israel-and

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/7/19/five-ways-israeli-law-discriminates-against-palestinians

I disagree.

But don't want to derail this thread.

It's not a religious conflict. Religion is just one of the ways these two sides arguing over land differentiate themselves. Secularists form the largest group in Israel: no Jewish group has a majority but secular Jews are the biggest minority in the country. And the most religious Israelis, the Haredim, barely fight at all and many don't give much of a shit about the Israeli state.

"The comments are illustrative of the mindset among a certain sector of the hard left, it's not a typical leftist view"

+++

The hard left has always been anti semetic for example anti semitism in the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn.

Lefty jew here. I despise hamas but not as much as I despise Netanyahu and zionism. I didn't arrive here on a boat as suggested by the racist poster above. There are thousands of Jews in the UK (millions worldwide) who support the liberation of indigenous people and labelling us all as terrorist sympathisers defies belief.

Israel needs to stop its illegal land grab, and its occupation. Until this happens the cycle of violence and propaganda will never end. With the Palestinian casualties outnumbering the Israeli ones by a long long mile.

@samupnorth

They're only non citizens because Israel have cornered them into Gaza where they're trapped

So you're saying Palestinians want to be under Israeli rule? This doesn't sound like what they are saying?

Every human deserves human rights and Israel have denied Palestinians these for too long, and here we are now

Excellent. Gazans have been governed by Hamas for 18 years. Can you please list the human rights they are entitled to under their government?

Stop pretending Israels actions do not need to be addressed within the context of this awful turn of events

It would be a lot easier to discuss them if we weren't spending the entire time batting off wallies talking about Human rights being denied by Israel to Palestinians when a) Israel do not govern Palestine so don't actually decide what human rights it's citizens get and b) the people who do are basically the Taliban!

False equivalence?
You're right you can't compare the two. One is the oppressor and the other is the oppressed.