To be sickened by Hamas

[MindfullyAmazedHorse]

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens?

I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days.

It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them.

I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying.

I am struggling to process these recent events.

@SnowflakeCity

I asked "when have Israel kidnapped children"?

And you have responded with a false equivalence to end them all.

Hamas deliberately arm "children" and recruit them as terrorists, they get caught and arrested and you are calling this "kidnap".

That isn't kidnapping children is it?

Like if I came to your house now with a gun and took your kids, would that me the same thing as your kids coming to MY house with guns, trying to kill me and going to prison?

It's not even close to the same though is it?

Irrespective of poor treatment of child prisoners (and let's be honest, child means 16 or 17 not 2 or 3) is a disgrace. It is not the same as approaching a family with guns and taking their babies, is it?

@BigBillyButterBollocks

Your posts on this and other threads are disgusting.

Many 'people' don't necessarily support Israel and are also anti-Hamas. There are three sides to every story - your side, my side, and the truth. It is rarely binary. That's why we have negotiators, and negotiations.

At least 1917 with the Balfour declaration, arguably millennia.

To me this is so disingenuous. Yeah, we are reasonable we want peace, let's reach an agreement but until then we will keep forcing people out of their land and growing our illegal settlements. Actions speak louder than words here and the actions of Isreal aren't those of a reasonable country who are seeking peace.

What do you mean? AM I only not disgusting if I say "well, Gazans had it coming, too baddy baddy if they all died. And for the babies? Well, they chose to have babies in Gaza under Hamas".

You can be horrified by what happened in Israel and wanting consequences for the people who commited it without cheering for the massacre of hundred or thousands of people who did absolutely nothing and who had been persecuted by Israel for decades.

I am tired to be bullied onto not speaking up about what Israel is doing and has been doing for decades.

Would you like a medal?

Hello pot, meet kettle.

Just because you keep saying a thing doesn't make it so. You're apartheid is another person's sensible security measure or another's logical military tactic.

If Israel was to lift all restrictions on Palestine tomorrow, completely disengage, hand back the West Bank entirely, etc., what do you think next week would like like? Or next month?

Bearing in mind Hamas have said they won't stop killing until every infidel is driven out of the holy land and every inch is under Islamic control.

You seriously think there'd be peace between Israel and Palestine?

BTW if you want to satisfy yourself that the claims of atrocities carried out by Hamas are true, you can quite easily go check yourself. The raw, uncensored footage recorded by active participants is easily found online if you're inclined to look.

My friend is going to Israel next month. The group tour is still on so far. I hope he will be ok

Very interesting post, thank you.

Your posts are an eye opener but unfortunately posters here are pro Palestinian occupation and they justify all war crimes and caging palestinians by blaming Hamas.
Where are the islaeli community standing up against the war crimes happening right this moment? Oh I think they are too busy spreading propaganda and twisting the truth online.

If the police came to my door, took my 16 year old son, refused him to have a guardian present, refused him legal aid, beat him, sexually abused him, starved him, blind folded him, kept him sleep deprived, put him in an actual cage yes I would consider that kidnapping.

The above is what you call arresting really? And its ok because it is 16year old children? Grim, grim, grim.

@Piggysmalls22

It is exhausting.

This unfortunately dates back to nearly 100 years ago

It goes back thousands of years. For 600 of those, Jews were living on THEIR land (there were there first) under oppression of their Muslim overlords.

Israel wanted to take land back that they believed was there’s

No, they were not offered fair rights anywhere else, and wanted their own state so they could live in safety and peace.

The people living on that land felt they had a right to live there in peace

No, both groups lived there and both wanted to rule over it when the British left. The British did an investigation and decided the fairest thing was to give each their own country. At the time partition was first the Jewish population was 28%, and they were offered 20% of the land and Arabs were offered 80%. The Jews accepted it and the Arabs refused it. They said they would rather not have their own country if it meant the Jews would also get one!

10 years passed and there was the Holocaust as well a vast increase in antisemitism around the middle east, so Jews pushed for their own country and it was agreed. Arabs would not agree, and THEY started a war, which they lost. And they have been warring and acting in terrorism ever since.

Israels government chose to oppress the Palestinians, they have been condemned as breaking human rights laws against Palestinian people

Palestines's government oppresses Palestinians. They torture them, imprison them without trial, refuse to let them have democratic elections, destroy all their infrastructure and use all their resources and aid money to fund terrorism or luxury for the leaders - and in the words of Amnesty "Human rights are elusive".

Hamas was formed out of the ongoing issues, now even more people will die and suffer

Hamas was formed just like ISIS, Taliban and so on - by extremists who want death to Jews and total dominance over everything by fundamentalists who believe there is only one "true God" and that dying / killing for him sends you to paradise. No one but they are to blame. Jews were subjected to 500x worse for 500x longer and Hamas strangely didn't form.

But that would end tomorrow if the Palestinian government agreed to recognise the state of Israel and negotiate a two-state settlement - wouldn't it? A whole thread and still nobody will answer that question.

Hi, completely agree. I've reported a number of them. As I have with other posters, whose posts have since been deleted. MNHQ don't delete posts lightly.

What are you talking about?!

There might have been a few, but it was vastly Arab populated land. The whole rationale for the state of Israel was the fact that Jews from EUROPE needed a homeland away from persecution.

Here we go.

@UhohFibonacci said: "so if that is what they wanted to portray, then why would they kill 40 babies yesterday? Don’t you think that is contradictory to their “propaganda”"

On the contrary, terrorist organisations have dual audiences and their actions are designed to send a message to them in different ways.

Terrorist groups murder civilians including members of their own community to demonstrate their power and willingness to murder. Their supporters then perceive this as strength.

But these actions bring inevitable condemnation of inhumanity, so terrorist groups then try to counteract it by releasing propaganda aiming to portray them as "defenders".

It looks contradictory, but isn't in the minds of terrorist groups. See the attachments for an example of terrorist logic from Hamas' friends, the PIRA.

@UhohFibonacci said: "you are talking from a place of extreme privilege,

On the contrary, I'm speaking from a place of personal knowledge and experience of what it means to live under threat from a terrorist group.

In my case, it was Republican and Loyalist terrorists. But mainly the Provisional IRA, friends of Hamas.

@UhohFibonacci said: "you think that they should sit in a war zone without Defense and just wait for them and their families to be obliterated by Israeli forces who DO have weapons?"

No, and a Strawman Argument. But it is Hamas putting them at risk by operating amongst civilians and misusing civilian infrastructure including hospitals and even UN run schools over the years.

Hamas deliberately put Palestinian civilians in harm's way by using them as human shields.

@UhohFibonacci said: "who do they have civilian protection from?? Israel are bombing anyone and everyone, civilian or not, gun holding or not, including women and children"

Hamas are NOT defending Palestinian civilians by any means. See above.
**
@UhohFibonacci said: "they have a right to defend themselves, and not every Palestinian is Hamas or a supporter."

When Hamas were formed in 1987, they had minimal support from Palestinians. But in 2021, support for Hamas dramatically increased as AP News reported:

apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

In 2022, respected Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki and his Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) carried out a survey looking at Palestinian support for armed groups. Main takeaways below:

• 72% of Palestinians support forming more armed groups in West Bank

• in Gaza, 84% of respondents supported concept of armed groups taking NO orders from the Palestinian Authority. This is HIGHER than in the West Bank where 65% supported the idea.

www.pcpsr.org/en/node/924

So, the support for Hamas, Lion's Den and other Palestinian armed groups is there from the Palestinian population. A minority do not support them.

At the same time, Palestinian support for the Fatah party led by President Abbas in the West Bank has collapsed to as low as 14%. Abbas is struggling to keep control of the Palestinian Authority territory in the face of support for armed groups such as Hamas.

So, not all Palestinians support Hamas. But it is NOT wrong to say that Hamas have the majority Palestinian support. That may or may not change in future.

@UhohFibonacci said: "there’s no way for you to definitively prove that the men in the video are Hamas, since they are on a murdering rampage I doubt they would bother sparing this woman"

Ah, you're now using the Appeal To Ignorance Fallacy as you argue that your conclusion the men in the video are civilians (by omission in your original post!) projecting a woman and her child must be true, because there is no evidence against it.

Not a great argument, especially when the title of your video clearly states "Palestinian fighters". Therefore, it's NOT unreasonable to conclude those men ARE Hamas members since it was Hamas who invaded Israel on Saturday past!

I'm sorry to have to inform you that Hamas were not solely on a murdering rampage. They were ALSO looking for hostages and we know they've got at least 100 Israelis as hostages.

Your argument is weak. 🤷‍♂️

Posters shrugging and coldly stating it's not their problem babies in Gaza will die from hunger/thirst/bombing is sending chills down my back.

Being called every possible name for stating something the UN, Amnesty International and several governments have been acknowledging for years is weird.

Being bullied into authorising the dehumanisation of Palestinians and not calling out people justifying their killing is ... What is happening to the world?

I just want to add that I have stated several times that I strongly condemned the US war after 9/11 and am proud we are moving away from revenge invasions, especially after the terrorists attacks in France and Belgium a few years back. So no, I am not only going after Israel. I do not condone making civilians pay for someone else's action.

And do you know what it's even worse than that because it wouldn't be my police force taking him away would it? I'm in Ireland so the equivalent is the UK army taking away my son who is a 16 year old child for throwing stones, refusing him any sort of representation or person on his side, beating him, blindfolding him, sexually abusing him, starving him, denying him sleep, torturing him, denying him medical care and keeping him in a cage for as long as they decide to. And that is your idea of arresting a child. Honestly my mind is blown.

International Law the so-called rules base order that the west like to say is a cornerstone of our world, find's Israel's occupation illegal. Just like Russia in Ukraine. The difference is we arm Ukraine and support their refugees and in my opinion rightly so.

https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

I have reported quite a few hate speech posts against Palestinians (from posters posting on this thread too) and a few defending Israel. They have all been deleted very swiftly and Mumsnet sent me a confirmation saying that they agreed it was unacceptable.

I am glad Mumsnet saw how serious and dangerous those posts are!

Or out of their mother's womb in at least one horrifying case.

@cucumbersaladextacold

Yes and you are forgetting a vital part to your story

What did Israel do after it was formed? What atrocities did they inflict on the Palestinians? Did they stand by the land agreement?

There was no "land agreement".

An agreement relies on two parties.

There was an offer.

The Palestinians said no.

They instead decided to start a war (and got 5 other Arab countries to join in all of whom stated their sole aim was to make sure Jews didn't get their own country).

And they lost that war.

In losing the war, they lost some of the land they had been previously offered, which is what happens when you choose war over diplomacy.

They chose war instead of the agreement, so that's why they ended up with less land. Not even the UN disputes that!

@SnowflakeCity It's quite insane the level of twisting things. Those actions against a 16 year old don't could as torture, abuse, kidnapping because a 16 year old is older than a 3 year old. But at the same time killing a 3 year old by bombing a hospital isn't the same as killing a 3 year old via another method apparently.

The justification is so strange, I have no idea why any reasonable person would want to rank any of the above on any sort of scale of how awful they are.