To be sickened by Hamas

[MindfullyAmazedHorse]

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens?

I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days.

It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them.

I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying.

I am struggling to process these recent events.

Is it antisemitic to point out what Israel has done since 1947? Hamas haven’t been around since 1947! And antisemitism specifically refers to hostility towards Jews as a people, or towards Jews with regard to Judaism. It’s not really correct to use it when people don’t agree with what a government (Israel) has done to persecute another peoples (Palestinians).

No one in their right mind can condone or justify what Hamas has done! NO ONE!

However, screaming antisemitism every time someone points out that Israel also have to acknowledge their part in this conflict, which has been ongoing for 70+ years, is ridiculous and unhelpful.

Is it true that Israel have killed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians? Yes

Is it true that the West doesn’t publicise what happens to Palestinians as much as they do Israelis? Also yes

Why? Because the British and American governments didn’t want their countries to house all the Jewish refugees from Europe after WWII.

I think some people need to read up on proper history, not just modern history.
Learn about how Jews and Muslims coexisted in Arabia in the early days of Islam.

Learn about how Jews fought the pagans alongside Muslims in Arabia.

How the Jews were treated under Islamic rule in the Iberian peninsula pre-Catholics taking control from the Muslims.

The Shoah did not happen in a vacuum.

A quick and brief history lesson for you.

1066 William the Conqueror invited Jews from France to come and live in England, and gave the Jews special status. Probably not a good idea though! The Church (There was only the Catholic Church and they preached that Jews killed Jesus, completely disregarding the fact that Jesus was a Jew!) made life for Jewish people untenable!

1096 French and German Christians, as part of their People’s Crusade, attacked and murdered ~2000 Jews. (Typically these murders were knows as Pograms)

1190 Jewish massacre in York, related to blood libel claims

1218 All Jews in England were required to wear a badge marking them as Jews under Henry III

1222 The Church, under Henry, forbade Jews from owning slaves, mixing with Christians and proselytising

1253 Good old Henry imposes even stricter sanctions against the Jews, endorsing the blood libel claims

1260 More pograms against Jews, culminating in ~500 being killed

1287 All Jews in Gascony expelled by Edward I, and of course, all their property, goods and chattels reverted to the King

1290 Edward I expelled all the Jews from England

Jews weren’t allowed to return to the (now) Great Britain until 1655!

1348-1351 Jews blamed and persecuted for The Black Death in Europe

1391-1492 The wholesale massacre of Spanish Jews, the Spanish Inquisition (against Jews and Muslims), and the disputations led to Jews finally being expelled from Spain (the ones that survived!)

1648-1657 At least 100,000 Jews died in the Ukraine as the Cossacks massacred them

1821-1906 Widespread pogroms against Jews in the Russian Empire

1894-1906 The Dreyfus Affair in France - one of the worst miscarriages of justice in modern history

Then we arrive at the Shoah, played out alongside Soviet anti-Jewish policies.

Hitler used a treatise written by Martin Luther called “On The Jews and Their Lies”, as one of the justifications for his treatment of Jews. (Martin Luther was the father of German Protestantism). It’s also important to note that as well as Jews, also Romany people, Jehovah’s Witnesses, black people, Muslims and basically anyone not fitting in to his master plan, as well as political enemies and their families, were all interred in concentration camps and murdered.

So, this is the backdrop to the whole conflict taking place in Israel right now.

It’s also important to note that during the above time periods, in America, Jews were also mistreated, again due to the teachings of Christianity and the crucifixion of Jesus.

The British have never had a good track record of leaving territories and colonies in good condition and when the Mandate for Palestine came to an end, they once again, left a country in turmoil (for further information, I would suggest reading up in the Indian subcontinent and how independence played out there and the thousands of people displaced and killed due to the British policies).

Now, Israeli settlements have expanded so much that they have also taken over the land mandated for Palestinians, so the Palestinians are now all scrunched up into a tiny strip of land in Gaza.

Because Palestinians now don’t have a country, they can’t get travel documents (it’s extremely difficult to leave Gaza if you’re Palestinian and the Israeli soldiers guarding the entrances don’t allow Palestinians to leave unless they have an exceptional circumstance).

(Doing some reading around Zionism would be really useful as well)

Added to the whole mixing pot, is the fact that there are Jewish sects, such as Haredi Jews, who don’t accept Israel settlement, due to the belief that Jews will be returned to the promised land after the Messiah arrives.

I think that people also have to bear in mind that Christians in Israel don’t always fair well - there is a lot of reading available about this topic if anyone is interested.

Nothing in life is black and white, and unfortunately the conflict between Israel and Palestine is grey, murky and full of bloodshed.

I hope the historical overview that I gave helps people to understand why the West won’t intervene and why media reporting in the West isn’t always accurate or balanced.

Just the number of fatalities and casualties amongst Palestinians versus Israelis is surely enough to make people think carefully about what’s happening over there.

Additionally, whilst Hamas is a terrorists organisation that absolutely does need to be stopped, isn’t the IDF also striking terror in the hearts of Palestinians? Should we also consider them terrorists for the subjugation and suppression of the Palestinian people?

And yes, I have a degree in this stuff and wrote a chapter on Jewish-Christian relations during the Reconquista!

Edit: clarity

@Rabbitcar

Horrific Islamophobia here and no acknowledgement of how the West allowed and continues to allow Palestinian rights to be trampled over by their Israeli oppressors. Very upsetting

Palestinians are "opressed" more by their own leaders than the Israelis. And they have no rights because their leaders give them none. No civil rights. No legal rights. No fucking elections.

Stop trying to blame "the west".

Palestinians are being killed in their hundreds of thousands by the Israeli government, not by their own leaders. That’s is what is known as a fact. An uncomfortable one, but not one that can be ignored by screaming anti semitism at anyone who dares to say it loud.

@Pollyputhekettleon

That's not what we were told on the other thread. Over there we were told by Lemony, who seemed knowledgeable and honest, that during the British mandate, in the 1930s and 1940's the British proposed, I think twice at least, to give the Arabs and Jews a state each, the Jews accepted it, the Arabs refused. She wasn't talking about the Balfour Declaration. Are you saying that never happened?

Yes what I said yesterday was accurate. Arabs were offered their own state with 80% of the land of mandatory Palestine and 20% for Jews and they refused it. Google the Peel Commission report.

Netanyahu being kicked out for his inability to protect his people may be the only good thing to come out of these awful events.

@samupnorth

Palestinians are being killed in their hundreds of thousands by the Israeli government, not by their own leaders. That’s is what is known as a fact. An uncomfortable one, but not one that can be ignored by screaming anti semitism at anyone who dares to say it loud

Under 4000 Palestinian Civilians have been killed since Hamas took power. Under 7000s including combatants / terrorists. Almost all ciivilians were not intentionally killed, but were killed as part of the ongoing war where Hamas generally use their own people as human shields.

Hamas use aid money for terrorism, deprive their own people of all their most basic needs deliberately so they can spend all the aid money and resources on terrorism or luxury villas where they hole up in resplendent palaces with full belies watching their own folk starve.

And no one can speak up, because they also arbitrarily imprison their own people without trial, force disappearances, torture and deny any access to legal process. So stop blaming "the west".

"hundreds of thousands killed and that's a fact". FGS.

@Pollyputhekettleon

Why exactly did the Arabs think it was unfair? They must have been aware that one of the reasons the Jews wanted their own state was because they had lived as second class citizen under dhimmitude for centuries, under Arab rule. I've asked several people now whether there was ever any apology forthcoming to the Jews for that. Would giving them their state not have been the obvious way to guarantee them they would never again be subjected to dhimmitude and to apologize for it?

Dhimmitude is normal among many cultures. The idea of equality is a very western one. Even today, in most Muslim countries the testimony of a woman is worth less than a mans. The rights of an Indian or Bangladeshi immigrant would be non existent, whereas a local would be treated in every way as superior. This is the normal way, so no, they would not apologise.

And was there not a view among the muslim Arabs that because the land had been conquered by Islam, it was Islamic land and therefore former dhimmis could not possibly be allowed to rule any part of it? How could they not have held such a view, in light of the apparent lack of any serious remorse for the dhimmi system?

There were struggles amongst Arabs in the area. There was a lack of food, there was a lot of problems, a lot of fighting. The British were not managing things well. About 30% of Palestinian Arabs had no land (which meant no food really). They were very disgruntled and there was ongoing violence. They felt the land was theirs. they expected fully (and no doubt were led to believe) that when the Brits left they would be handed power. The idea of sharing with anyone, much less Jews who they despised in the way Nigel Farage despises people on small boats was absolutely abhorrent.

@Threemangoes

The Palestinian genocide is real

1948 Population
Jewish circa 700k
Arab circa 2.5 million
Population of the entire world was circa 2 billion

2023 Population
Jewish circa 7 million (900% increase)
Arab circa 14 million (460% increase)
Population of the entire world is circa 8 billion (300% increase)

Not only is the "genocide" not real - the population of Palestinians is growing at considerably higher rate than the world average.

Please don't bandy around words like genocide

@quiteoldad

Am I right in believing that at the start of the 20th century, the Palestinian's land was surreptitiously, almost deceptively, being bought by Zionists ( at over the odds prices) from all sorts of people, though quite a sizable proportion of those owners were arab landlords abroad

The land was under rule of the Ottoman Empire at the start of 20th century. They banned Jews from buying land because they were Jews. So it was not a case of them being "deceptive" and sneaky as you have implied (which by the way is an absolutely classic antisemitic trope). They wanted to buy land openly and easily but their Jewishness prohibited that. What a surprise!

Of the land that the Jews bought, 52.6% were bought from non-Palestinian landowners, 24.6% from Palestinian landowners, 13.4% from government, churches, and foreign companies, and only 9.4% from local Palestinian farmers. It was for sale, they bought it.

I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from but the Central Bureau of Statistics in Israel, estimated that there were 9,656,000 residents, of which 7,106,000 were Jewish, 2,037,000 were Arab and 513,000 were “others”.

These are figures from 31 December 2022. It defies belief that in the last 9.5 months, 2,000,000 Arabs have produced 12,000,000 more babies!

I knocked off the 37,000 as some of those Arabs have to surely be too young for child birth! But yeah, you do you!

Maybe I'm being really thick here because I don't understand the details of the conflict, but didn't the Palestinians start the conflict when they attacked the state of Israel? If Hamas agreed to recognise the state of Israel, wouldn't Israel negotiate a two state settlement and get off their back? I agree that various Israeli governments have caused terrible suffering in Gaza and acted illegally and probably inflamed the situation, but wouldn't Hamas wipe them out completely if the shoe was on the other foot? Given that agreeing not to exist isn't a practical option, what should Israel do to end the conflict? - genuine question.

Hamas are animals full stop and anyone who is trying to justify their attack is just as bad as them.

However after the dust has settled people will ask we can't live like this there needs to be a solution.

@Threemangoes

Why has palestion shrunk to a dot on the map? They must question this

Because in 1936 when they were offered 80% of the land they said "no fuck off we don't want it if Jews get some too"

Because in 1947 when they were offered 48% of the land they said "no fuck off, we don't want it if Jews get some too"

Then they started a war, where 5 other countries ganged up on the Jews and unfortunately they LOST the war. And such is the game of consequences, they also lost a big chunk of the land they'd been proposed and said "fuck off" to.

Then Jordan Annexed the West Bank (which they were totally find with for about 20 years by the way and no one talked about "occupation" or terrorised anyone) and Jordan didn't declare it a Palestinian state by the way.

And then a lot of attempts and peace talks led to more "fuck offs", interspersed with endless terrorism and suicide vests, meaning security had to become and almost full time job to enable Jewish people to get through a day without being blown up - not to mention another war (more land lost because Israel won again), two intifadas and public declarations that the aim was to blow Jews off the face of the planet.'

And when they did cease occupation of Gaza, within 48 hours Hamas had taken hold of it, smashed the infrastructure to smithereens, started blowing rockets over at Israel immediately and have since siphoned off every possible resource to enact terrorism on their neighbour rather than looking after their citizens, whilst consistently bitching Israel doesn't do enough for them.

So I am going to call that largely, most Jews I have ever met care very deeply about Palestinian people because (and wait for the shock) we are humans just like you! I have also not really come across and Jews personally who approve of the expansionist attitude of the Likud government and most of us think that should be reversed.

However, attitudes like yours are completely unhelpful as they seek to distort history into a narrative of a big might colonial oppressor over a weak, docile victim. And many here are still trying to do that in light of Hamas showing themselves to be basically government sanctioned ISIS.

@Threemangoes

According to your opinion Isreal has had enough but God forbid the poor poor poor Palestinians dare throw a stone at their oppressors and they should be killed inmidietly without the furore in the west

Throw a stone?????

Everything you just said...perfectly said.

@SarahLKelp in this context it is antisemitism to start "pointing out" other things. Nothing ever exists in a vacuum, you could start "pointing out" behaviours and actions in the case of any atrocity - but why wouldn't you just have pure empathy and sadness and be overwhelmed with horror at what's happened?

Totally, totally disagree. Discussing the actions of Israel and the political context that has lead up to the escalation of violence is NOT antisemitism. In fact I think that is quite a dangerous comment to start claiming antisemitism.

Because Hamas store weapons in them and hide behind children.

The individual perpetrators responsible for beheading babies with their bare hands have to be considered depraved.

@DeeCee77

Total deaths from 2008 to 2020
Palestinians: 5590
Israelis: 251

Quoting these figures is completely pointless. It carries with it a sense of intent, when all it reflects is that Israel has superb intelligence and defence systems in place to protect themselves from the murderous lunatics next door.

The reality is this. If Hamas had a choice it would be 14 million Jews dead, not 251.

"I think that the way China treats Uyghurs is appalling and a breach of human rights." = Not racist about Chinese people.

"I think Israel have carried out atrocities against the Palestinians." = Not anti-Semitic.

Can anyone claiming antisemitism quote posters who have prejudiced against Jewish people rather than referred to the Israeli state please? Because so far I haven't seen any.

Isn't one definition of antisemitism equating Jewish people with the Israeli state? If you read someone's sentence that refers to Israel as the state, and infer antisemitism, are you not doing exactly that and equating Israel with Jewish people?

This thread has been one of the grimmest reads I have had. Absolutely rife with antisemitism. And every 4th post is "it's not antisemitic to criticise Israel"

No it's not.

But it is antisemitic to deny Jews the right to live and flourish in their own state in accordance with the principles of equality.

It is antisemitic to hold Israel up to a different standard (for example outrageous nonsensical claims of "genocide" when by contrast the murderous bastards next door's behavior is downgraded to "throwing a stone" or protesting)

It is antisemitic to portray Israel as uniquely evil while dismissing the other sides clearly far worse actions as some sort of self defence.

It is antisemitic to bang on about "zionists" in a derogatory manner (as if believing in Jewish self determination is some kind of unique evil when literally everyone has it - including YOU)

The bias reeks off you.

@LemonyTicket The bias reeks off you.

Very very lol given your post is quite liberal old facts.

@JoanOfAllTrades

I think you read one section of the history book and skipped the rest. I am an Iraqi Jew. Generations of my Jewish family lived in the middle east. I also have a degree in Theology, focused on Jewish ancient history and a Masters in Middle Eastern studies.

Every vile shit sandwich you just listed that happened to Jews in Europe, also happened in the middle east. We were exported as slaves, we lived as dhimmi for thousands of years, we were denied the right to own land, live in certain places, do any decent jobs and there were frequent pogroms and a genocide to rival the holocaust.

The idea we were living side by side as friends with Muslims is just nonsense. We minded out own business and were not violent people, but we were subjugated and always were. They didn't like it very much at all when we asked for that to no longer be the case.

I wrote extensively about this history of this on another thread and won't do it again but suggest anyone interested check Wikipedia for "persecution against Jews" or "antisemitism in the middle east". It's as old as the hills.

My own family left Iraq in 1941 during the Farhoud. This excellent first hand account gives a picture of what that was like.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13610702

WTF are you talking about?

ANSWER THE QUESTION....don't play dumb now (although I'm questioning how intelligent you are)

I want a simple yes or no

I'll put it more simply for you

Would you send in Israeli soldiers on the ground in Gaza, knowing full well that hundreds of children would be killed? YES OR NO?