Page 16 | To be sickened by Hamas

MindfullyAmazedHorse · 2023-10-10T21:08:25+00:00

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens? I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days. It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them. I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying. I am struggling to process these recent events.

Threemangoes · 11/10/2023 02:50

WhatIsTheTruth · 11/10/2023 02:36

@Thebestwaytoscareatory Totally agree.

In my brief education on the background to this conflict, it seems that this all started with Arab aggression to Israel wanting to create a Jewish state on land that was their ancestral home or holy land. Land was purchased from the Ottomans? Due to the Arab aggression (6 day war anyone?) Israel has had to constantly fight back and protect itself since it’s inception. Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank was part of Jordan.

Gaza was then given independence to the Palestinians who then elected a terrorist government almost immediately who’s mandate was to wipe Israel from the map so Israel cut them off from entering. Is this the open air prison people keep referring to? Simple solution if you can’t be trusted not to kill your neighbours - stop. Even Egypt, their former rulers, doesn’t seem want anything to do with them. Gaza has been handed billions in aid (including from Israel) but have done little in the way of infrastructure with that money - water salination plants? and still depended on Israel for food, water and medical care. Where has it all gone? They managed to purchase arms and rockets though.

They have used child suicide bombers to blow up Israelis (I can imagine the Israelis are on constant alert for this so mistakes can happen) and deliberately place their military units and weapons in civilian areas, schools and hospitals so they can they can say Israel murdered civilians when they try to destroy weaponry being used against them, and have refused peace deals.

Israel must be the only country in the world that has had to create an iron dome specifically to repel repeated rocket attacks.

I’m sure if Gaza wanted rid of Hamas and to live in peace alongside Israel, they would have had a lot of help to do so, including from Israel! They’ve had 17 years to ask for help.

I don’t blame Israel for having had enough quite frankly. The savagery and scale of the recent attacks are unprecedented and right out of an ISIS playbook. If the Palestinian people didn’t want these atrocities to happen in their name, they wouldn’t have been celebrating in the street with kids toting machine guns?

From the videos I’ve seen, they believe their dead are martyrs and this is something to aspire to. There is no reasoning with that kind of ideology as there’s no want to preserve human life which is normally what stops us trying to kill each other and the killing will never end.

According to your opinion Isreal has had enough but God forbid the poor poor poor Palestinians dare throw a stone at their oppressors and they should be killed inmidietly without the furore in the west.

Perfect victim blaming and shaming. Israel stole the resources and now you are saying Israel helps them? What in the name of false messiah is this?

DeeCee77 · 11/10/2023 02:55

What Hamas did was horrific. It was a massacre and completely reprehensible. The kids at the music festival, gunned down execution style. It's very hard to see the footage and tbh I've avoided much of it.

What we can't do is solely comment on this. Its dishonest/deceptive to do so. This is a long-running conflict and Gaza is effectively a large prison camp.

The UN statistics on the disparity of the deaths/injuries that each side has suffered is startling. I had an idea a much bigger number of Palestinians had died over the years but had no idea is was this much;

Total deaths from 2008 to 2020
Palestinians: 5590
Israelis: 251

The total figures (including injuries) for each of those years further highlights the gulf:

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

Something needs to happen in terms of a peace settlement otherwise the carnage that we witnessed at the weekend will only continue.

Infographic: The Human Cost Of The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

This chart shows Israeli & Palestinian deaths/injuries documented by the UN in Gaza and the West Bank.

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank

Threemangoes · 11/10/2023 02:56

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 11/10/2023 02:46

No, hamas are just the biggest barrier to peace. Israel has previously shown it is willing to negotiate and could likely be convinced to do so again.

Hamas have categorically stated they will never entertain peace with Israel.

You, and others keep saying Palestinians are living in a prison but seem to be completely blind as to why that would be the case. It should be beyond obvious that Israel isn't going to want people who are committed to their destruction freely entering their country. But the fact that Egypt also don't want them to be able to freely enter their country should tell you this isn't an Israel problem.

As to why are Palestinians forced to leave their homes, well again, that should be fairly obvious. They're involved in an ongoing armed conflict. Do you think that when Balklands where tearing themselves apart families in disputed areas got to keep their homes? Of course not, to the victor go the spoils.

War results in land changing hands and people being displaced. Palestinians can continue fighting a losing fight or they can reopen peace talks. That's pretty much the only two options open to them as they're almost certainly never going to achieve their other aim of remove Israel from the map.

Show quote history

Palestine is not part of Egypt.

You have for no clear reason tried to justify their homes being stolen by Jews. Yet you don't know why Hamas don't want peace?

Why should they settle on living at the mercy of Israel? Please go and see the world map it's Israel who has officially wiped Palestine off from it.

If you keep repeating lies people will eventually believe you is the case you are trying to use here.

Threemangoes · 11/10/2023 02:58

DeeCee77 · 11/10/2023 02:55

What Hamas did was horrific. It was a massacre and completely reprehensible. The kids at the music festival, gunned down execution style. It's very hard to see the footage and tbh I've avoided much of it.

What we can't do is solely comment on this. Its dishonest/deceptive to do so. This is a long-running conflict and Gaza is effectively a large prison camp.

The UN statistics on the disparity of the deaths/injuries that each side has suffered is startling. I had an idea a much bigger number of Palestinians had died over the years but had no idea is was this much;

Total deaths from 2008 to 2020
Palestinians: 5590
Israelis: 251

The total figures (including injuries) for each of those years further highlights the gulf:

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

Something needs to happen in terms of a peace settlement otherwise the carnage that we witnessed at the weekend will only continue.

Total deaths from 2008 to 2020
Palestinians: 5590
Israelis: 251

This is not a conflict, this is genocide!

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 11/10/2023 03:00

Threemangoes · 11/10/2023 02:37

So rather then focusing on a solution that will work for Palestine continue stealing from them killing them and torturing them because their leaders are terrorists just like Israel is a terrorist nation.

Free Palestine from the terror of Israel is more appropriate then. What do you think??

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What are you on about? What solution do you think would work for Palestine?

Say for example Israel agreed to return to the original division of land, what then?

Israel wouldn't be required to help Palestine in anyway, it would be perfectly entitled to erect DMZs all across it's borders and have absolutely nothing to do with the free state of Palestine.

Do you think that would result in peace in the region? Almost certainly not if Hamas or their ideology remained and we'd just be back at square one again.

And yes, populations are frequently punished for their 'choice' in leader. Just as the Germans, Japanese, Russians, Iraqis, Afgans, Libyans, etc., etc.

You may draw a distinct line between Hamas and Palestinians but that's not the reality.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 11/10/2023 03:07

DeeCee77 · 11/10/2023 02:55

What Hamas did was horrific. It was a massacre and completely reprehensible. The kids at the music festival, gunned down execution style. It's very hard to see the footage and tbh I've avoided much of it.

What we can't do is solely comment on this. Its dishonest/deceptive to do so. This is a long-running conflict and Gaza is effectively a large prison camp.

The UN statistics on the disparity of the deaths/injuries that each side has suffered is startling. I had an idea a much bigger number of Palestinians had died over the years but had no idea is was this much;

Total deaths from 2008 to 2020
Palestinians: 5590
Israelis: 251

The total figures (including injuries) for each of those years further highlights the gulf:

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

Something needs to happen in terms of a peace settlement otherwise the carnage that we witnessed at the weekend will only continue.

The death statistics are more to do with Israels ability to defend itself and respond to attacks than from any lack of effort to kill their people from Hamas et al.

A genuine question for you. Hamas are committed to the obliteration of Israel, that is undisputable and many Palestinians support Hamas.

What would you have Israel do? Open Gaza up and allow potential enemies unrestricted access to their people? Provide their enemies with supplies and aid? Something else?

If you want peace you need to remove the section who have stated they will never accept peace from the equation.

BigBillyButterBollocks · 11/10/2023 03:07

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 11/10/2023 03:00

What are you on about? What solution do you think would work for Palestine?

Say for example Israel agreed to return to the original division of land, what then?

Israel wouldn't be required to help Palestine in anyway, it would be perfectly entitled to erect DMZs all across it's borders and have absolutely nothing to do with the free state of Palestine.

Do you think that would result in peace in the region? Almost certainly not if Hamas or their ideology remained and we'd just be back at square one again.

And yes, populations are frequently punished for their 'choice' in leader. Just as the Germans, Japanese, Russians, Iraqis, Afgans, Libyans, etc., etc.

You may draw a distinct line between Hamas and Palestinians but that's not the reality.

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"Do you think that would result in peace in the region?"

Let's try and see? Israel can't go wrong stopping stealing land and houses. And you know what they say, one non occupation a day keeps the Apartheid away!

LetsResearch · 11/10/2023 03:09

Toothyfruity · 10/10/2023 23:23

So you can illegally throw people off their land and kill them because people of the same religion as you were there hundreds of years ago allegedly? Well that's not reasonable.

On your second point nobody here is saying what Hamas did was OK. Most people supporting the Palestinian side agree that it was barbaric. What is noticeable is that nobody on the Israeli side here is admitting any wrongdoing by Israel when they have imposed apartheid on Gaza for 15 years and have stolen land and terrorised the population. And are bombing civilians as we speak.

That's a worry.

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Judaism has been around since 600BCE. Christianity since the 1st century and Islam since the 7th century. It's not 'alleged' that Judaism has existed in the middle east hundreds of years before Islam.

Hamas wants an Islamic state rather than ownership of a couple of areas of Israel. It's terrorism. All this 'it's terrible what happened in Israel but Israel kind of deserved it for "stealing" land' is sick. Those poor innocent people. Did London deserve 7/7?

Rosscameasdoody · 11/10/2023 03:20

Catusrusty · 10/10/2023 22:17

There is so much antisemitism dressed up in whataboutery on these threads about Israel.

Hamas have committed utterly indecent, inhuman atrocities in crimes absolutely reminiscent of those perpetrated by other Islamist groups like ISIS.

There is no excuse. None.

Unfortunately antisemitism, like misogyny is still widely accepted by large swathes of society.

It isn’t anti semitic to question the actions of the Israeli government, or the roots of the conflict. Many Jewish people are doing the same thing. Are they anti semitic ? No-one in their right mind would condone what Hamas have done, but the issue is complicated. There are no excuses, but there are reasons.

Threemangoes · 11/10/2023 03:21

Wow lots of Palestine genocide apologists have come out of the woodwork in the middle of the night.

Israel can't go back to square one so make sure Palestine never come out of square one. Keep them deprived of their human rights. That'll do the trick. Sick sick sick people

DeeCee77 · 11/10/2023 03:21

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 11/10/2023 03:07

The death statistics are more to do with Israels ability to defend itself and respond to attacks than from any lack of effort to kill their people from Hamas et al.

A genuine question for you. Hamas are committed to the obliteration of Israel, that is undisputable and many Palestinians support Hamas.

What would you have Israel do? Open Gaza up and allow potential enemies unrestricted access to their people? Provide their enemies with supplies and aid? Something else?

If you want peace you need to remove the section who have stated they will never accept peace from the equation.

Show quote history

I'm in Northern Ireland. The first 14 years of my life was during the Troubles. I've seen conflict up close. One parliamilitary group fighting for the Union, the other fighting for a United Ireland. It solved nothing, with bloodshed the result.

Hamas are not the Palestianian people.

As regards terrorism, you do understand the backstory of how the modern state of Israel came to be?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

Rosscameasdoody · 11/10/2023 03:29

LetsResearch · 11/10/2023 03:09

Judaism has been around since 600BCE. Christianity since the 1st century and Islam since the 7th century. It's not 'alleged' that Judaism has existed in the middle east hundreds of years before Islam.

Hamas wants an Islamic state rather than ownership of a couple of areas of Israel. It's terrorism. All this 'it's terrible what happened in Israel but Israel kind of deserved it for "stealing" land' is sick. Those poor innocent people. Did London deserve 7/7?

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No-one is suggesting that Israel ‘deserved it’. What Hamas did was dreadful. But having a claim to the land is no excuse for what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. If you effectively make people prisoners in their own land, as is happening in Gaza, is it reasonable to expect them to accept that without protest ?

Fruitandclottedcream · 11/10/2023 03:37

You're not being unreasonable but the thing is. Yes Hamas are a terrorist organisation. So you're not being unreasonable as they have commited atrocities. But... Israel are committing atrocities as well. And have been since they illegally occupied Palestine in 1948.

Someone I know, lost 12 [Palestinian] family members in one night due to Israeli strikes on the gaza strip. That was this weekend just gone.

I've found if people mention Israeli atrocities they're accused of being anti Semitic. Palestine supporters admit Hamas commit atrocities so why can't Israel supporters acknowledge that Israel have commited atrocities without screaming anti semetism? It's not anti Semitic to be against illegal occupation of land, genocide and apartheid.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it's also not as simple as Hamas Vs Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu supported Hamas financially for years. Back in 2019 he admitted it was done to keep the Palestinian Authority and Hamas divided to prevent a Palestinian state being created. Israel needed Hamas in order to prevent a Palestinian state emerging. Hamas Needed Israel for funding to make sure they could keep control of the gaza strip. None of this is simple and I would argue none of this is about the people on either side. It's not about a Jewish State, and it's not about freeing Palestine. It's all about power and control.

I really suggest doing some reading as it's an incredibly complex subject and It can't just be simplified down to "Hamas did XYyZ" as there is so much back story and history.

Rosscameasdoody · 11/10/2023 03:42

CaughtUpInYourWishingWell · 11/10/2023 01:00

@Threemangoes 🙄 what are you even on about? You clearly know very little about what's gone on over the decades. Hamas started this. Israel hasnt been kidnapping innocent families. Get a grip.

This is mind bogglingly ignorant. Hamas didn’t ‘start’ anything - the conflict has been ongoing for decades. Suggest you go away and read up on the roots of it before posting garbage like this.

LetsResearch · 11/10/2023 03:50

Rosscameasdoody · 11/10/2023 03:29

No-one is suggesting that Israel ‘deserved it’. What Hamas did was dreadful. But having a claim to the land is no excuse for what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. If you effectively make people prisoners in their own land, as is happening in Gaza, is it reasonable to expect them to accept that without protest ?

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Palestine/Hamas are claiming ownership and killing, raping and kidnapping innocent Israelis. There's protesting and then there's doing what Hamas did at the weekend. This isn't a protest. It's really shocking that you're a terrorist apologist - 'what Hamas did was dreadful... But Israel...'

DeeCee77 · 11/10/2023 03:51

Rosscameasdoody · 11/10/2023 03:42

This is mind bogglingly ignorant. Hamas didn’t ‘start’ anything - the conflict has been ongoing for decades. Suggest you go away and read up on the roots of it before posting garbage like this.

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Hamas started in '87 I believe. But yeah, this thing has been going on alot longer.

If Israel could just take out Hamas and then go look for a peace settlement, we'd all take that. Unfortunately that's a pipe dream. Rather than having a statesman in Yitzhak Rabin as PM, Israel are currently under a right wing warmonger who has no interest in seeking a lasting settlement.

We are still a mess in Northern Ireland (still no local government due to the DUP), and our situation is nowhere near as complex as the Israel/Palestine one.

Rosscameasdoody · 11/10/2023 04:15

LetsResearch · 11/10/2023 03:50

Palestine/Hamas are claiming ownership and killing, raping and kidnapping innocent Israelis. There's protesting and then there's doing what Hamas did at the weekend. This isn't a protest. It's really shocking that you're a terrorist apologist - 'what Hamas did was dreadful... But Israel...'

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I’m not a terrorist apologist, thank you. And what I find shocking is that accusation being levelled at anyone who tries to look at the situation from both sides.

Fruitandclottedcream · 11/10/2023 04:16

MindfullyAmazedHorse · 10/10/2023 23:04

Yes. You’d think after WWII we would have learnt some important lessons. The antisemitism is utterly horrifying.

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I mean you would also think after WW2 the Israeli state wouldn't want to oppress and persecute Palestinians in order to create a Jewish homeland. You know considering they went through the exact same when Hitler wanted to create an Aryan state.

Also fyi It's not antisemitic to criticise Israel. The definition of anti semitism is Prejudice or hostility towards Jewish people and the Jewish faith. Nobody is criticising Israel because it's a Jewish state. It's a cop out to cry anti semitism every time someone questions your world view.

LuisVitton · 11/10/2023 04:17

The problem is the surrounding Arab states who don’t want Israel to have a state.Hence Palestinian refugee camps in Jordan for decades.

Egypt,Syria etc could gift land to the problem and give Palestinians a home land -important sites could be shared. Rich oil states could fund it.

But they won’t fund aid to Palestinians -I don’t know why.?different Muslim beliefs. And the US and rich Jews in the US make sure Israel can fight back which perpetuates it as US probably did in Ireland.

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 04:51

Israel have murdered thousands of Palestinians over decades. I'm not surprised they have eventually retaliated

I'm only on page 1 reading this thread and it's already this daft. "Eventually retailiated"???? Are you taking the piss?

Palestine political violence

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence

Palestinian political violence - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence

posut · 11/10/2023 05:02

Appalled by all the terrorist sympathisers.

samupnorth · 11/10/2023 05:05

What Hamas has done is disgusting and unforgivable but what the Israeli government has done to Gaza is also unforgivable, it’s just less dramatic and certainly less reported on. The UK government has blood on its hands for allowing Israel to carry on unchallenged and sadly this has contributed to the events on Saturday .

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 05:05

@BumWad

That’s what gets thrown about doesn’t it, antisemitism

No, no, no

Anti-Zionist yes

So you've got no problem with JEWS. You just Deny the right of Jews in the State of Israel to exist and flourish, collectively and individually, as Jews, in accordance with the principle of equality. You support Palestinians right to a safe space in their homeland to live with their own culture and laws and feeedoms. Just not Jews. You just single out Jews, out of every people on earth to live with the principles You defend for others.

Cool. Totally normal, and DEFINITELY not antisemitic:)

Noicant · 11/10/2023 05:08

When you start executing babies (not killed by accident, you looked at them, saw what they were and decided you should definitely kill them and perhaps behead a few) then you have reached such a depth of depravity that you are basically just abhorrent to normal people.

What happened at that kibbutz was disgusting, utterly vile. I felt sick reading about that, Hamas is disgusting, anyone not disgusted by that or celebrating it needs to have a good hard look themselves.

samupnorth · 11/10/2023 05:12

I also find it strange that English people support Ukraine because they are an occupied territory but when people mention Israel illegally occupying Palestine , then we’re terrorist supporters . The hypocrisy is bemusing.