To be sickened by Hamas

[MindfullyAmazedHorse]

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens?

I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days.

It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them.

I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying.

I am struggling to process these recent events.

Palestinian people suffer because of israel's war crimes and genocide and collective punishment to Palestine.

They suffer because Israel steals their homes and grabs the Palestinian land for their settlers.

They suffer because of Israel's complete control on them.

I know there's unrest. Presumably pregnant women aren't having their babies ripped out of them which is what I was referring to😭I've unfortunately been to the Armenian genocide museum.

Yep. This, and another similar thread, is rife with them. I'm appalled by the whataboutery going on.

Were babies actually beheaded?

Ive just read several reports now, where people are saying that this is not true.

What I have learned from other conflicts, is that one side will say that the other side is doing something terrible. To make them look bad.

Don't believe everything you hear

It’s awful. How could anyone do things like that to a baby? I feel so upset at the state of the world and shed many tears over it tonight lying next to my own baby.

Literally on the verge of tears

What Hamas has done is utterly deplorable. There is no justification.But nobody can be expected to start and end a discussion with that. It's a complex issue and debate cannot just be shut down. There are only so many times we can reiterate how appalling and inexcusable Hamas' actions have been whist being expected to entirely ignore what came before or after. Not as justification, but as a way to understand why.I absolutely condemn Hamas, I am on the side of the Palestinian and Israeli civilians, it is not antisemitic to say so. This is global politics playing with innocent lives and I shall never applaud or ignore a single throat slit or bomb dropped.

I am very far from being racist. You clearly have some issues to cause you to be so offensive to a complete stranger.

There is no "both sides" to the type of extremist Jihadi terrorism that Hamas carry out. There is no equivalence. And any repercussions in Gaza are because Hamas committed these atrocities.

I asked the same since I have seen a (seemingly reputable) newspaper tweet that the IDF had told them they had not heard about beheaded babies. And all the articles are copying each other. The source seems flimsy.

I think we might be witnessing mass hysteria (maybe it is wishful thinking, anything better than being the truth).

Has anyone seen a direct confirmation from an Israeli official?

That's not what we were told on the other thread. Over there we were told by Lemony, who seemed knowledgeable and honest, that during the British mandate, in the 1930s and 1940's the British proposed, I think twice at least, to give the Arabs and Jews a state each, the Jews accepted it, the Arabs refused. She wasn't talking about the Balfour Declaration. Are you saying that never happened?

Why exactly did the Arabs think it was unfair? They must have been aware that one of the reasons the Jews wanted their own state was because they had lived as second class citizen under dhimmitude for centuries, under Arab rule. I've asked several people now whether there was ever any apology forthcoming to the Jews for that. Would giving them their state not have been the obvious way to guarantee them they would never again be subjected to dhimmitude and to apologize for it?

And was there not a view among the muslim Arabs that because the land had been conquered by Islam, it was Islamic land and therefore former dhimmis could not possibly be allowed to rule any part of it? How could they not have held such a view, in light of the apparent lack of any serious remorse for the dhimmi system?

I have been reading through all messages & trying to respond to as many as possible, which takes some time.

I am not sure of the point of your post, but this thread is about a real life, horrifying event. It isn’t an instalment of a “choose your own adventure” book.

I also feel that Israel's response is wrong.

Israel have now started attacking the Gaza strip in response. It says they have killed 1000 innocent civilians.

Their response is just as brutal and shocking.

Well, no it’s 2023 they’re just being blown up by bombs.
Don’t confuse less personal means of killing as somehow being more humane.

Hamas is responsible for what Hamas has done. Israel is responsible for what Israel does to the Palestinian people.

@Mooshamoo I hear people on the left in Israel are calling for a ceasefire and for trying to save the hostages.

Yes they absolutely did! I had endless discussions with leftists about this at the time. They responded in precisely the same way they're responding to this - whataboutery, minimizing, justifying, shrieking racism and islamophobia, blaming the west, worrying as loudly as possible about backlash against innocent muslims. Same as their response to every other jihadist attack in Europe.

Israel has now viciously attacked the Gaza strip in response. 1000 innocent civilians have been killed.

That is the sad thing about conflicts like these. If both sides sat down and talked peacefully, things could improve. But I've seen it in other conflicts, people get stuck in a "you hurt me, so I'm going to hurt you" phase over and over and lives are wasted.

Palestine think : Israel killed our innocent children, so we will kill their innocent children.
Then Israel retaliate and kill innocent people in Gaza.
Then in the future Palestine will want to get revenge for these deaths and will attack Israel again.
It is attacks over and over . People get deeply stuck and entrenched in the hurt done to them by the other side, and they can't advance to more peaceful talks.

Hope this helps

The historical context of the British Mandate in Palestine, the proposals for partition, and the reasons behind Arab opposition are complex. It's important to clarify several historical points:

1. Proposals for Partition: In the 1930s and 1940s, during the British Mandate for Palestine, there were various proposals and plans for the partition of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. The most well-known of these is the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, which was approved by the UN General Assembly in 1947.
2. Arab Opposition: Arab leaders and states, including the Arab Higher Committee, opposed the partition plan and various proposals for partition. They had several reasons for their opposition, including concerns about the displacement of Arab populations and the perceived injustice of dividing Palestine into separate states. They felt that the proposed partition did not adequately consider the rights and interests of the Arab population.
3. Historical Background: The historical background of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is essential to understanding these dynamics. While it is true that Jewish communities faced discrimination and dhimmitude in various regions under Muslim rule, the history of the conflict is marked by a complex interplay of historical events, including the Zionist movement and the desire for Jewish self-determination.
4. Religious and Nationalist Views: There were diverse views among Muslim Arabs regarding the land's status and ownership. Some did view it as Islamic land due to its historical conquest by Islam, while others approached the situation from a nationalist and political perspective.
5. Resolution and Apology: The historical context of the conflict has made it challenging to reach a resolution that addresses the rights, grievances, and aspirations of both Jewish and Palestinian populations. The conflict has deep historical, political, and territorial roots, making it a complex and sensitive issue.
6. Differing Perspectives: Differing narratives and perspectives on historical events exist on both sides, making the pursuit of reconciliation and peace a challenging endeavor.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is marked by historical grievances, differing interpretations of history, and a complex web of political, national, and religious factors. It's important to recognize that this issue remains a subject of debate and negotiation.

I'm not I didn't know. Although now that you mention it I think there are varying degrees of it. What I mentioned does literally make me want to weep. It is the worst thing bar this weekend that I've ever read.

Me? Did you actually read what I wrote?

I wish for one minute people would actually read, consider, and value what someone writes, and have the open mindedness to possibly learn from it. Instead people are more interested in arguing with or deliberately misreading people's points.

I literally said that people highlighting FACTS about the situation, e.g. actions that Israel have taken, is not antisemitic. Please give me a proper answer as to why discussing the actions of this country makes me hate Jewish people?

For example, I can highlight my country's actions towards other countries in the past, e.g. colonisation. And I can explore and discuss the implications of this. It doesn't mean I hate the British does it?

How silly you sound. You do realise that this is what Israel is doing right now? They've cut off the water, electricity and aid to Gaza and they're bombing it. Killing hundreds of civilians. That poster was asking if you're OK with that.

Did anyone give a shit when this happened? Four little kids killed by an Israeli air strike while playing on the beach?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/israel-clears-military-gaza-beach-children