To expect my 11 year old to be able to use the toilet during the school day?

[bendy75]

Is this the norm? My 11 year old started in at secondary school last month and has had two warnings (or stage 2 - Low level disruptions) for asking to use the toilet.

I told him to try and go at break times but he tells me they are locked, confirmed today by staff when I asked, children who have a medical need can apply for a toilet pass but he does not, so has to try and go from 8.00 am until returning home around 3.00pm without using the toilet.

AIBU to be shocked by this?

I'm doing what? Is this some Mumsnettism like "naice ham" and "cancel the cheque"?

I think @MrsHamlet you've misunderstood the needs of the self-harming child. Stopping the child from self-harming in one place doesn't stop the child from self-harming elsewhere and more critically, doesn't remove the need to self-harm. And it is a need, an overwhelming compulsion to feel physical pain. The child facing that won't be able to focus in lessons and will probably behave disruptively because of the pent-up stress. It's as fruitless as trying to stop me from stimming.

As I said, cutting in a -25C freezer was preferable to not cutting.

The only thing I find surprising about this, is that people don't believe it. How on earth can they know what happens in every school? I only know what happened in schools I worked at, but I believe there may still be schools that do this. They may vary the procedures during inspections.

Because if they believe it then they have to do something about it

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia sorry but wtf do you want teachers to do exactly?? I can't let a child I know self harms go toilet as there's no 1:1. I can't leave with them, there's 29 other kids.
We have kids who are taking overdoses who are being rejected by the CAMHS generic team as their needs are too high, but the high needs team don't seem them high enough. There's no capacity anywhere. They're apparently too high needs for Camhs but it's fine for them to be in school as long as the DSL does a safety plan.

I'm sorry so many of you don't believe the realities of what's happening in schools. I really wish I could live alongside this ignorance. It sounds blissful.

So what's the kid to do, pee herself or bleed onto the seat because her period has started?

Do you escort her everywhere at break and lunch? What happens at end of school day?

They're apparently too high needs for Camhs but it's fine for them to be in school as long as the DSL does a safety plan.

There's your problems: CAMHS are passing the buck and the kid isn't well enough to be at school. A girl in my class was off for months because she developed anorexia, head teacher visited weekly to drop work off and keep tabs on her, but she was deemed too ill to attend school.

When I got ill, I was under CAMHS. My GCSE subject count was reduced to reduce stress but I wasn't barred from using the loo even though the self-harm wounds were visible and I'd ODed at home.

If the kid can't be trusted to use the loo without cutting, the kid shouldn't be at school.

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia my question remains. What do you expect the teacher to do? They don't make the decision that the kid is in school. They also don't make the decision that camhs is a shambles. What exactly are you expecting.

Send the kid home on the basis of being too sick to attend school.

Takes me back to when I was in primary school I had bladder issues was so embarrassing having to ask to go a lot but I couldn't help it my mum had to go up to the school as the teacher stopped me going and I wet myself a few times.

Children who are self harming may well be safer in school than unsupervised at home. Teachers know this.
This thread is just becoming a one-poster event so I am going to leave it now.

If the kid can't be trusted to use the loo without cutting, the kid shouldn't be at school.

Children who self harm are still entitled to an education. Our job is to try to protect them whilst giving them that.

Lecturing me doesn't change the way in which toilet policies are applied in my school, and why they are as they are.

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia it's not ignorance of the law, it is the law as I said before. @BCCoach has said it better than I have tried to explain.

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia I've already explained were not allowed to do that. So what's your solution?

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia I’m sorry you have had some difficult experiences in school. But your responses to this post, which is ‘Why are the loos locked in my sons school?’ are not rational.

If CAMHS are allowed to say "too hard for us to deal with" then so should you be allowed. You're not mental health practitioners, you shouldn't be expected to address behaviour that the mental health practitioners refuse to deal with.

I've been in that position of ever-escalating workload and being the "waste paper basket" person who got everything that no one else would deal with. I attempted suicide at work, was off sick for three months, got a new job whilst off sick, and am well out of there. Resign and claim constructive dismissal. Go off sick with stress. Strike over conditions.

But don't let "we're in crisis" be an excuse for locking kids out of the loos.

The whole situation of a child who

• has come done with a migraine and is running to the loo to throw up.
• has started a period and can feel blood running into her knickers
• has come down with diarrhoea
• has cystitis
• just plain got caught short

being faced with a locked door is irrational and downright cruel. How can anyone think "well, teachers are overworked <shrug>" and consider that to be the rational response?

I never said the loos should be locked. Not once. I don’t agree with it either but it’s because of vandalism, bullying and vaping not self harm or rape. I have also pointed out that there are medical cards (yes my daughter has one for her periods) and accessible loos for all in an emergency and that teachers may use discretion if they think someone is trying it on or not.

As I say, I’m sorry for your experiences but you are making out school loos are the Wild West and that teachers feel no compassion for children. It’s fear mongering and it’s just not true. People are telling you otherwise but you are just not listening. You are taking it all very personally and it’s just not helpful for the debate.

Before I pulled my daughter out of secondary school she was able to use the toilet freely whenever she wanted. She had diarrhea once and she ran too the toilet and let her whole world fall out. The excuses on this thread is woeful. Taking away children's basic human right to use the toilet is Draconian. If you are keeping toilets locked because you have mentally ill children then you need a check up. If someone wants to self harm they will find a way to do it. Mental health is not taken seriously in this country because if it was we wouldn't be forcing them to go to school they would get sent homework to do.

Kids get bullied in classrooms and a lot of the time the teacher can't handle the children or stop it. My children have gone to school until when I did homeschool them and I never heard of these Draconian measures. I spoke to my partner about it and he looked at me like I was mad and asked me where I read it from. I grew up in the London Borough of Enfield I was able to use the toilet when I needed to.

If you are having to take drastic measures then I can only assume the area is deprived and the kids are unhappy.

Others on the thread have endorsed loos being locked. My "irrational" responses are for them. You asked why I hold my view, so I told you. Don't interpret me answering a question as a personal attack.

Understanding why the toilets are locked isn't the same as saying that considering the options

1. toilets locked for horrible reasons
2. lovely schools with well-supported kids where toilets don't need to be locked

that they would choose option 1.

Everyone, everyone would prefer option 2.

This.

Your proposed alternative is to close the schools.

1. schools open, lessons happening, toilets locked
2. schools closed, all kids at home

After lockdown it should be fairly obvious that 2 isn’t the great solution here.

And if you think ‘oh but the govt wouldn’t allow schools to be closed and kids be at home for more than a few days’, look at the RAAC situation.

Option two doesn't result in kids soiling themselves or getting cystitis, kidney stones, and dehydrated from trying to hold it in and not drinking all day.

Health trumps education.

https://suitable-education.uk/restricted-toilet-access-how-is-this-okay/#:~:text=It%20is%20legal%20in%20the,olds%20suffer%20with%20continence%20problem.

The view here is that it is legal, but unacceptable, to restrict access to toilets during lesson times.

I'd like to know whether the schools are actually breaking the law if access is restricted during breaks, but it seems to be one of those "it's so fucking obvious it shouldn't even need to be said" type situations.