Page 3 | To expect my 11 year old to be able to use the toilet during the school day?

bendy75 · 2023-10-10T14:15:47+00:00

Is this the norm? My 11 year old started in at secondary school last month and has had two warnings (or stage 2 - Low level disruptions) for asking to use the toilet. I told him to try and go at break times but he tells me they are locked, confirmed today by staff when I asked, children who have a medical need can apply for a toilet pass but he does not, so has to try and go from 8.00 am until returning home around 3.00pm without using the toilet. AIBU to be shocked by this?

MakeTeaNormalAgain · 10/10/2023 16:45

@Flamingogirl08 bullshit. You have no idea whatsoever.

These policies are to KEEP CHILDREN SAFE. It's not hard to understand.

HotApplePiePunch · 10/10/2023 16:51

TBF to DC secondary there was a prolong problem with toilets they spent time and money trying to sort before paying for an installing the shutters and restricting access.

As PP said they don't see the same restrictions as the kids do - they don't see how hard it is to use passes or get keys or deal with delays in shutters being opened.

I was a bit concerned when it emerged DD2 was apparently going all school day with no toileting but quiet observation of her habits showed days out and holidays she has same pattern with no issues - so unless it becomes an issue for her I have other battles to fight.

I don't think it's ideal by any means but OP should find out what the school says is happening first - and then check to see if her DS has any potential hidden barriers to access school thinks is there.

Passepartoute · 10/10/2023 16:52

bendy75 · 10/10/2023 15:24

My son has been saying they are locked at break times since they started, hence why I asked (I did not believe it myself) but a staff member said they are locked at all times and a pass is needed, I have absolutely no reason at all not to tell the truth, however I shall double check tomorrow just to make sure I have not got the wrong end of the stick.

Did you ask the staff member how on earth pupils are supposed to manage if that is really the case? I can't understand why you took this at face value, it so obviously cannot be correct.

millymog11 · 10/10/2023 16:52

OP so far as I know this is normal.

In my children's school the toilets are either locked or invaded by delinquents or so unclean they are not useable.
My kids try to go just before they leave for the school bus and are busting to go to the toilet when they get home

Flamingogirl08 · 10/10/2023 16:54

MakeTeaNormalAgain · 10/10/2023 16:45

@Flamingogirl08 bullshit. You have no idea whatsoever.

These policies are to KEEP CHILDREN SAFE. It's not hard to understand.

Look you're right I'm not a teacher but I'm sorry there needs to better ways of dealing with these things than taking away basic human rights.

No wonder kids struggle these days, they're not even allowed to use their own initiative to know when to use the toilet!

If what OP is is saying is right (and it may well be because that was the case in my daughters school until it was raised by parents) then that is just wrong. My daughter came home one day and her skirt was soaked through, she had wet herself on the way home because she was so desperate. An 11 year-old wetting herself! Now I'm sorry maybe in your world that's OK but it's not in mine.

You may say that she just should have just pushed the teacher but a year 7 new to the school and petrified of getting in trouble just isn't going to do that. So I stand by my position whether you think I'm clueless or not.

MakeTeaNormalAgain · 10/10/2023 16:58

@Flamingogirl08 what happened with your daughter is not acceptable. Poor lass. I appreciate it's hard for kids to speak up sometimes.

But I genuinely do not know what else we can do. The toilets are only restricted during lesson time and pupils are encouraged to remember to go at lunch and break.

Example: when this was not a policy, one of our year 9s managed to rip one of the cubicle doors off, and hit another student with it, causing the student to require hospital treatment. There was police involvement. Teachers were not alerted in time as this happened while they were teaching. Tell me how you think this should be managed? Each teacher having a key won't work as kids from other classes arrange to meet st certain times.

MistyBean · 10/10/2023 16:58

Are secondary schools still so controlling about the toilets?! I am going to assume that they are open in break time, but honestly what is the issue with going in lessons on occasion? Just make sure kids go one at a time and keep an eye on kids that are making a habit of it. The only reason I got through the day at school was because I was dehydrated all the time. If there are other behavioural issues then man the toilets, or have individual cubicles by classrooms rather than whole blocks of toilets. The answer isn't denying kids their basic human rights.

BCCoach · 10/10/2023 16:59

TheLongGloriesOfTheWinterMoon · 10/10/2023 15:36

Your son is lying to cover up the fact he disrupts lessons by persistently asking to leave the room.
Speak to the teacher to confirm this.
Then amuse yourself by reading the other eleventy billion threads about supposed human rights' violations in schools on Mumsnet. (Saturday was the last one I saw)

OP has confirmed it directly with the school herself. Are you accusing her of making it up?

Ours are only open for 15 minutes at lunchtime and staffed so that no more than two students can go in together.

Foxesandsquirrels · 10/10/2023 17:00

@WhateverMate they really are though.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 10/10/2023 17:00

Look you're right I'm not a teacher but I'm sorry there needs to better ways of dealing with these things than taking away basic human rights.

Pay more tax to properly fund schools so we can have cctv in all corridors and sufficient staff to follow up every time there's an incident. And support schools in excluding children who cannot behave properly.

Regardless, being allowed to go to the toilet whenever you want isn't actually a human right. Lots of jobs (including teaching) don't allow it.

Dramatic · 10/10/2023 17:01

MakeTeaNormalAgain · 10/10/2023 16:58

@Flamingogirl08 what happened with your daughter is not acceptable. Poor lass. I appreciate it's hard for kids to speak up sometimes.

But I genuinely do not know what else we can do. The toilets are only restricted during lesson time and pupils are encouraged to remember to go at lunch and break.

Example: when this was not a policy, one of our year 9s managed to rip one of the cubicle doors off, and hit another student with it, causing the student to require hospital treatment. There was police involvement. Teachers were not alerted in time as this happened while they were teaching. Tell me how you think this should be managed? Each teacher having a key won't work as kids from other classes arrange to meet st certain times.

That student should be permanently excluded.

Maireas · 10/10/2023 17:01

No, @MistyBean - I think there's been some misunderstanding on here, and a little bit of others stirring the pot...of course they have opportunity to go, and of course they can be allowed to go in lessons at the discretion of the teacher. Normally teachers are urged not to allow it too much.

Flamingogirl08 · 10/10/2023 17:02

JemimaTiggywinkles · 10/10/2023 17:00

Look you're right I'm not a teacher but I'm sorry there needs to better ways of dealing with these things than taking away basic human rights.

Pay more tax to properly fund schools so we can have cctv in all corridors and sufficient staff to follow up every time there's an incident. And support schools in excluding children who cannot behave properly.

Regardless, being allowed to go to the toilet whenever you want isn't actually a human right. Lots of jobs (including teaching) don't allow it.

We're talking about break times. If you can name a job where people can't go to the toilet on their break then I'd be shocked.

It was the case in my daughters school that toilets were locked at break and lunch before you call bull shit.

fearfuloffluff · 10/10/2023 17:03

MistyBean · 10/10/2023 16:58

Are secondary schools still so controlling about the toilets?! I am going to assume that they are open in break time, but honestly what is the issue with going in lessons on occasion? Just make sure kids go one at a time and keep an eye on kids that are making a habit of it. The only reason I got through the day at school was because I was dehydrated all the time. If there are other behavioural issues then man the toilets, or have individual cubicles by classrooms rather than whole blocks of toilets. The answer isn't denying kids their basic human rights.

I don't think they do it for the fun of it.

As for having funds to staff toilets or build new ones - dream on.

Toilets are where kids mess about, plus it's a prime bullying site. Going during lessons disturbs learning.

Maybe your son just needs to be more organised to get to them during breaktime? It must be wrong about them being locked all the time, there would be puddles everywhere!

Wavescrashingonthebeach · 10/10/2023 17:04

I'm reading more and more about this and it makes me absolutely livid. A friend of mine said her child was refused permission to go to the loo and wet himself. It's a basic fucking human right to go to the toilet. I don't remember it being this bad when I was in school. Il be telling my son that if he's absolutely desperate and they won't let him then he's to walk out of the door and go for a wee. And I don't want to hear the bollocks about its kids being disruptive going the loo in lessons- it's easy enough to spot the ones who may be going excessively or spending excessive amounts of time but the whole lot of them shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few!

Dramatic · 10/10/2023 17:04

JemimaTiggywinkles · 10/10/2023 17:00

Look you're right I'm not a teacher but I'm sorry there needs to better ways of dealing with these things than taking away basic human rights.

Pay more tax to properly fund schools so we can have cctv in all corridors and sufficient staff to follow up every time there's an incident. And support schools in excluding children who cannot behave properly.

Regardless, being allowed to go to the toilet whenever you want isn't actually a human right. Lots of jobs (including teaching) don't allow it.

My kids secondary school has CCTV all over, they have unrestricted access to toilets at break/lunch time and they are allowed to go in lesson if they really need to but they will get a note written in their planner (I'm assuming this is to keep an eye on the ones who are asking every lesson) this is a comp in a pretty bad area and kids do play up but they manage to control them to the point that they don't have to restrict toilet access.

Blueblell · 10/10/2023 17:04

I would clarify that they are actually locked at break times? If so that can’t be right.

Flamingogirl08 · 10/10/2023 17:05

MakeTeaNormalAgain · 10/10/2023 16:58

@Flamingogirl08 what happened with your daughter is not acceptable. Poor lass. I appreciate it's hard for kids to speak up sometimes.

But I genuinely do not know what else we can do. The toilets are only restricted during lesson time and pupils are encouraged to remember to go at lunch and break.

Example: when this was not a policy, one of our year 9s managed to rip one of the cubicle doors off, and hit another student with it, causing the student to require hospital treatment. There was police involvement. Teachers were not alerted in time as this happened while they were teaching. Tell me how you think this should be managed? Each teacher having a key won't work as kids from other classes arrange to meet st certain times.

I don't have much of a problem of restricted during lessons, it was that way even back in my day.

They should just be open at break though.

I agree that some of what goes on in there is shocking and needs to be managed. I'm just not convinced banning kids from the bathroom is the way forward.

Definitely schools need to better funded and need better resources and teachers have a tremendously difficult job. I would never argue that.

Nothankyou22 · 10/10/2023 17:05

At my sons secondary they’re locked during lessons but expect 270 kids to use the 4 toilets at break.
They’re now reviewing after a few kids have wet themselves.
its ridiculous

Dramatic · 10/10/2023 17:06

JemimaTiggywinkles · 10/10/2023 17:00

Look you're right I'm not a teacher but I'm sorry there needs to better ways of dealing with these things than taking away basic human rights.

Pay more tax to properly fund schools so we can have cctv in all corridors and sufficient staff to follow up every time there's an incident. And support schools in excluding children who cannot behave properly.

Regardless, being allowed to go to the toilet whenever you want isn't actually a human right. Lots of jobs (including teaching) don't allow it.

I don't think there's many jobs where you'd be expected to not use the toilet for 7+ hours.

MakeTeaNormalAgain · 10/10/2023 17:08

@Flamingogirl08 thats what the OP should check. They should be open at break.

@Dramatic I agree, but you have no idea how difficult it is to expel a student these days. Also this was one example of many, some more serious, incidents.

Teachers do know when children are in genuine need and can't wait an extra say 10 mins or so. However I'm sure there are schools that are a bit heavy handed with the policy.

Begsthequestion · 10/10/2023 17:08

JemimaTiggywinkles · 10/10/2023 17:00

Look you're right I'm not a teacher but I'm sorry there needs to better ways of dealing with these things than taking away basic human rights.

Pay more tax to properly fund schools so we can have cctv in all corridors and sufficient staff to follow up every time there's an incident. And support schools in excluding children who cannot behave properly.

Regardless, being allowed to go to the toilet whenever you want isn't actually a human right. Lots of jobs (including teaching) don't allow it.

Why do schools need CCTV in corridors just so kids can use the toilet?

I don't understand what's happened in secondary since I was a student.

Has it really changed that much in a 20-odd years?

towriteyoumustlive · 10/10/2023 17:13

OMG this debate does my head in.

I teach in a secondary school.

The pupils can NOT go to the toilet in the lesson (except anyone with a medical condition or at the discretion of the teacher for girls on their period). This is due to damage done to the toilets during lessons.

They can go before school, before P1, before P2, break time, before P3, before P4, lunch time, before P5 and after P5. That's NINE opportunities to pee.

There are ample opportunities to pee during the day. Far more than teachers get, as we only have the option of before the school day, break, lunch and after school.

A child age 8+ should be able to properly manage their bladder. You do NOT need a full bladder to be able to pee. You just need to relax the muscles and empty the bladder, which children learn from age 2 onwards.

You would not believe the verbal abuse I get from children demanding (not asking) to go to the toilet. One girl even turned up 8 minutes late this week, then 15 minutes later said she was going to the toilet, and called me a "fucking bitch" when I said no, told me I was denying her of her human rights, and apparently her dad is going to come and smash my face in.

And you wonder why so many people are dropping out of teaching...

I've been teaching 11 years, and only ONCE have I ever left a lesson to go pee, and to be fair I was 30 weeks pregnant with twins!

HotApplePiePunch · 10/10/2023 17:13

School tried CCTV at toilet entrance - and they already have them in the corridors - I couldn't understand how that didn't stop the issue but if they can't expel and they use isolation all day for minor uniform infractions (not uniformly applied either) perhaps knowing the problem kids wasn't enough.

margotrose · 10/10/2023 17:17

Why do schools need CCTV in corridors just so kids can use the toilet?

So kids don't use the toilets/free time to smoke, drink, vape, self-harm, beat people up and destroy property.