To expect my 11 year old to be able to use the toilet during the school day?

[bendy75]

Is this the norm? My 11 year old started in at secondary school last month and has had two warnings (or stage 2 - Low level disruptions) for asking to use the toilet.

I told him to try and go at break times but he tells me they are locked, confirmed today by staff when I asked, children who have a medical need can apply for a toilet pass but he does not, so has to try and go from 8.00 am until returning home around 3.00pm without using the toilet.

AIBU to be shocked by this?

Hmm you’re right. I guess changing behaviour then /banning vapes by doing bag checks at registration is the only way to go.

The things @twistyizzy listed - schools having no money/no staff etc also shows a totally new way of schooling is needed.
Schools are getting more and more prison-like by the day!

@Verbena17 it shows schools need more funding, more funding needs to be available for other services too, because at the moment schools are expected to sort out all societies problems (as all other services are broken too) with no money.

And many parents will kick off if bag checks are instigated (never mind some kids). And who will have time to do these bag checks?

@crumblingschools maybe the threat of consequence if random checks are done and vapes etc are found?

Who knows - it’s a whole different world to my secondary education in the 90’s. Teachers respected the students and vice versa. There was very little micromanagement of students as there is now. We had so much more freedom in school to make mistakes and learn from them but we were scared to get told off. Nobody wanted a dreaded detention or to go and stand outside the heads office. I really think primary schools micromanaging every single little behaviour hasn’t helped. But secondaries too - really need to get rid of their behaviour pyramid crap and go back to how it was when most kids actually wanted to be in school.

@Verbena17 @crumblingschools I believe a 2 prong solution is needed. 1) is obviously increasingly funding but that oj its own won't work. 2) is parents have to start parenting ie this entitled attitude of their litter darlings can do no wrong means that whenever schools try to sanction kids the parents kick off and complain. I'm not saying all schools get it right every time but if my DD got a detention then she would also face sanctions at home as well.
Kids need boundaries and consequences and parents who support school discipline, not parents who complain when their child get a detention etc. Sadly too many parents seem to out source parenting to the schools which leads to behaviour issues and a lack of respect for authority in general.

You and your son may not have understood. Some schools do this.

@towriteyoumustlive you are correct that you don't need to wait till the bladder is full to go to the toilet but relaxing your muscles is not how the bladder works. The bladder is in a relaxed state whilst it is filling up and it contracts to release the urine.
When the bladder is full, it sends a signal to your brain, the brain then tells the bladder at an appropriate time, ie when you are at the toilet, to contract. When you start emptying your bladder before it is full, say half full, the bladder gets used to this and starts sending the signal to the brain when it's half full. Your brain then thinks that you need to empty your bladder. This means that you end up with an overactive bladder, have to go to the toilet more frequently and cannot manage to completely fill your bladder.
It's not good to constantly go to the toilet before you need it.
My son is in year 10 and gave up trying to use the toilet at school in year 7 because there is not enough time between lessons when you have to get from 1 class to another, there are only individual toilets and there is always someone else in it and a queue. He is desperate by the time he gets home but he manages to hold it all day.
I on the other hand have an overactive bladder and have done since childhood because of the way that I was made to go to the toilet, even if I didn't need it.

Behaviour and attendance has got a lot worse since lockdowns. Many parents and students don’t see education and being in school as important as they used to

To be fair, the govt caused that and to be honest, maybe parents had their minds opened to the flaws in the current schooling system.

I know overactive bladders are a thing (I have one myself and try to train myself out of it) but it's unlikely that most teenagers are afflicted with it. I'd guess that if they need to go, they need to go, and most teachers will soon guess if someone is swinging the lead.

And it's not really about that, it's about girls and their periods. It's bad enough realising at the age of 13 that you are stuck with these monthly bleeds for 40 years or so, without teachers making it even more difficult for you.

There are flaws in the current system but schools/teachers can’t change the system and don’t have money to patch up the problems

I'd be reporting them for child abuse. The amount of UTIs those kids must be getting. Or becoming dehydrated because they want to avoid needing the toilet. It's literal child abuse.
I'd be pulling my kid out of that school and reporting them and I wouldn't let it go no matter what poor excuses they give. People need to use the toilet!

Agree 100%

Does nobody find it at all suspicious that children's behaviour is worsening despite the fact that schools are more draconian than ever?

Perhaps we need a rethink?

@IsleofDen maybe it’s not all about school

This thread reminds me that I am right to home educate my kids at secondary level.
(School for Primary was hard enough, 6th form experience has so far been good.)

Teachers assuming kids are lying
Teachers assuming parents are lying
Teachers deciding other teachers must be lying.
Teachers who think anything outside their own experiences is obviously made up.

I do not want my children influenced by people like this. Let alone trust them or give them rights to care for my child.

That's before we get on to the actual situation we are talking about.
I totally understand that this is due to the school system being unfit for modern society's needs and totally underfunded.

Why on earth is there not more outcry?

(I have many teacher friends, they are lovely people, until they are at work, then it's like they are totally different people with totally different morals. I presume it is the pressure and needs of the job.)

Only one of these solutions is actually feasible though - increased funding. Yes, parents should start parenting, but if they don't there's no way of making them. Schools need to have real sanctions available to them and need to make sanctions proportionate - at our school the sanctions start at a 1 hour after school detention: so forgetting to tuck your shirt in, and punching another kid in the face result in exactly the same punishment. Exclusions are virtually impossible for schools to enact due to the requirement to have alternative provision in place for excluded pupils - if all the PRU places in the county are full (which they are in mine) then schools cannot exclude full stop.

I'm reading this with horror. Another reason not to have kids.

I recently visited some schools in few countries due to work and they were fine. While the buildings were quite depressing you were able to use toilet, have a lunch in a canteen, nice cushions and sofas in the hall for breaks, group works and story time. No signs of smeared shit and vaping when using the student bathroom during lesson.

Obviously if this is the reality that 11yo show antisocial behaviour in numbers so large that the solution is to not let anyone pee. Then something needs to he done in social care, child service, parental support etc. I doubt just money would be the solution. Having money to hire someone to stand next to a urinal does not solve the deep issue.

Update, I asked a member of staff at the school gates this morning for clarification. The toilets are indeed locked at break times at the moment due to staffing issues (I am not sure if there would be enough time anyway) but they are always open at lunch time (30 mins), the staff member did emphasise that all children with a medical need can have access at any time.

My son did say whenever he has tried to go at lunch the toilets are locked (I am now wondering if he means they are occupied).

This situation is not ideal for any child but I do not see how it can be remedied easily by the schools either with the lack of funding or staffing issues.

For the posters suggesting my son is disruptive and/or lying, he is a very shy and quiet fella and hates getting into trouble, he was devasted he got two negatives on his chart (nothing at all like my 2 older girls), and I doubt he would have the courage and often wish he was more assertive than he is.

Is child behaviour really worse?

Kids have used toilets as smoking dens for decades (smoking / vapes not much difference) My school had one known at "the smokers toilets" which I never ventured into.

If the issue is kids putting vapes down toilets, give them a bin. Do a whole school education thing on the environment and the issues of littering and the disgusting job someone needs to do to clear out blocked sewers.

I swear if the toilets are kept locked and no wall or Bush is used as an alternative then the kids are better behaved than my school was.
I do recall a maths teacher giving boys a tip, if your going to piss outside do it on soft ground not concrete, they'll be less smell!

This is insane. I would be fuming.

Children are taking up vaping who would never have smoked. If only it was as easy as putting a bin in a toilet block

Many pupils are in schools that were not built for the number of pupils they now have.

Maybe the systematic underfunding and de-staffing of schools over the past 13 years has something to do with it?

Constant churn of staff, endless cover lessons, shortening lunchtimes to save money, being unable to hire midday supervisors either because no one applies or because there's no money to hire them. Defunding of SEN support and mental health support so kids who are in no state to be in a classroom are left with nowhere else to be?

Yes its the same at our school. They're only open during lunchtime, and certain ones at breaks. Tell the school he has an issue with his bowels, so he gets a pass. This means he can leave lessons to go too.