Collective Punishment - No water, no food, no medicines

[Lieblingsessen]

I do not condone whatsoever what the Hamas attacks on civilians in Israel or their ideology

But surely, Israel laying siege to Gaza, preventing innocent civilians from accessing water, food, medicines, electricity for hospital equipment, is not justifiable. To collectively punish civilians who have no control over what Hamas or their government does. This is medieval.

Where is the outcry on the mainstream media about this? Surely it is not being anti-semitic to call out Israel, that retaliation is not unexpected, but collective punishment is horrendous.

Ah that is okay then! Only a little starvation and bombing hospitals then. 👍

I think they are more likely to survive negotiations than bombing. I can't understand why recovering hostages is not the main priority here - going ahead with the bombing and siege is accepting they will be sacrificed in the name of vengeance. It's a tragedy in Gaza, but there is a chance, however small, of returning some of those people home. Israel is being asked to stop bombing certain targets, such as hospitals. I don't understand why they wouldn't.

Sad but true, nobody actually gives a shit about Muslims killing each other. For the last 20 years or more, each year alone more Muslims have died by the hands of other Muslims, than by Israel in its entirety of existence.

Look at what happens on average in a month in Yemen, Iran, Syria and more.

Stop being obtuse. Anyone with half a brain can see the difference between cold-blooded, targeted killing of innocents and collateral damage in context of war.

How many Israelis have butchered Arab children in bed using knives? Or wiped out entire families at point blank range?

Oh my God.

What apartheid? Israeli Arabs have equal rights. They hold all kinds of top positions, from members of parliament to high court judges to professors to doctors. Heck, last year they were even part of the government.

Only a few years ago an Arab judge sentenced the Israeli president to prison. If that's apartheid, you need a new dictionary.

Because they fucking don't.

Do you understand that the UN, NATO StratCom COE and other authorities have identified Hamas using civilians as human shields AND abusing the protection given to civilian infrastructure under International Humanitarian Law from which they launch attacks?

The target is still Hamas.

Can you elaborate on why you think rescuing hostages should be the priority? I might have time later tonight to go into some detail on that issue.

@DownNative Because they are lives that could maybe be saved. How must their families feel knowing that they are included in the general bombing of the area. The scale of death and loss is heart breaking, I can't believe the hostages are being abandoned to their fate?

Well, there is no talking with that kind of lying attitude. No honesty, no dignity. Everybody lies to make Israel look bad..

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

If Israeli are going to pretend they treat Palestinians fine, that there is no apartheid,no settlers,no occupation, that the people of Gaza are not kept in an open aor prison by Israel, this is never gonna go amywhere.

Is it apartheid if French citizens haven't voting rights or the right to work in the UK?

Gazaans are not Israeli citizens. It hasn't even been governed by Israel for almost 20 years.

This isn't a question of value of lives, but a question of the sheer difficulty plus danger in mounting an operation to locate and rescue them.

Negotiations is out of the window according to Hamas who have also said they will execute them. Conceding to terrorist demands like this gives ALL the power to Hamas.

Hamas really doesn't give a shit about civilians of any description. They will do it again and again and again unless action is taken against them.

Former US Army Ret. Gen. Barry McCaffrey explains it well below:

"It's an almost impossible task. Armor, infantry force, supported by fighter aircraft, dominate the scene and then try to find them in basements and tunnels.

This is going to be a bloody mess. Catastrophic for the civilian population of the Palestinians as well as the IDF fighting their way in.

It looks like a long, bloody fight, in which the advantages of the Israelis will be partially neutralized by fighting in urban warfare.

I don't know how they're going to solve this without massive casualties in their own forces, never mind catastrophic damage in the Gaza strip."

What about whataboutism?

Who spoke about Gazaans? The victims of the apartheid are Palestinians.

It is apartheid if English people occupy French territory, vote laws discriminating angainst French, state that the French people's house must be given to English people then forbid French people to walk in some street, drive in some area, decided that they need permission fron English people to get in or out of some areas....

OMG, are the English doing that? The world needs to call them out on that. That's barbaric. We can't turn a blind eye to tht. Poor French people 😪

The illegal occupations need to be addressed as part of the peace agreement

Absolutely - and considering Israel honoured the commitment to withdraw from Gaza it's not unreasonable to suppose there could be positive movement on this

But not while Hamas continue to call for the entire state's destruction, which is why they simply have to be removed first for the sake of both Israel and the many decent Palestinians

@DownNative I understood Hamas had asked for a swap in return for Israel ceasing to bomb civilian areas. I realise there is the argument of human shields, but I am with the UN in that I think a ceasefire, peace keeping and negotiation would have been best. As it gets worse and worse I don't know anymore. It's such a waste of precious human life and if any innocents can be saved, on either side, I feel it's a step in the right direction. This is all so wrong.

I'm pretty sure the Israelis know full well what the plight of their hostages will be (or already has been) by a 'government' who has beheaded babies and and paraded the naked corpse of a woman bleeding from her genitalia while spitting on her for the whole world to see. I dread to think what horrors the hostages have experienced and if they're still alive what is the likelihood they will be handed over unharmed do you think?

www.express.co.uk/news/world/1822179/hamas-soldiers-beheaded-babies-during-massacre-israel-claims/amp

OK to do it to others though? Or have I misunderstood you?

Gaza has been blockaded for years, although allowing some 'workers' through to meet Israeli needs. How much can you push people and not expect retaliation? The widely publicized 'barbaric' acts by Hammas are not to be condoned but what do you think happens when a people are 'ghettoized' as the Palestinians are?

It is not too dis-similar a situation to the Warsaw Uprising, glorified by The West as an act of freedom, the difference in this case is who supplied the weapons (probably Iran) and who are now the Oppressors.

The US Noraid organization supplied weapons and funds to the IRA, quite overtly, making them no different to Iran really.

I do think the UK does have a certain responsibility to the Palestinians as we helped establish the partitioning of the ME and creation of the State of Israel in 1948. However, even if not originally intended, it's mayhem now and it's not right what has been happening to the Palestinians for decades since; and the centuries of persecution, holocaust and anti-semitism doesn't make it right.

Time to go back and revisit the initial 1948 Agreements and do it differently so that neither Israelis or Palestinians are persecuted.

Israel shouldn't have any condition to treating Palestinians with dignity and according to international laws. And give back the territories they stole in Palestine. And release the children they put in jail. And stop the attacks on civilians in the street/Mosque.

Israel shouldn't use Hamas as an excuse for not giving Palestinians (in and outside of Gaza) the rights they never intended to give them.

Well foolishly I looked again, and now can't help replying.
It's not about me 'flouncing' or 'being new to the topic' or even 'being too delicate to cope'- far from it, I'm making a very valid and reasonable point that it's a shame that it seems impossible to have a discussion on this website or any other about this or other topics without being insulted or patronised.
Your post is both insulting- needlessly so, and patronising. It's also wrong on fact-Gaza is not a luxurious place to live! It's a shame, as it does put a lot of people off having a discussion, and there's no reason for it. But hey, I'm clearly being naive that a civilised and courteous, factual debate could take place on this topic.

As I said, I am the grandchild of an Orthodox Jew, who lost many family members in the Holocaust. We went to Warsaw in the early 90s to try and track down as much information about them as we could- very little and a very challenging but eye opening trip. My grandfather gave money like many other Jewish people to help build Israel in the 1950s; even he had become disillusioned at the end of his life with the way Israel treated the Palestinians.

My post isn't ill-informed either- B'Tselem, the long standing and respected Israeli human rights organisation has stated that 'the bar for labelling the Israeli regime as apartheid has been met' (Jan 2021.) This is not a lie, nor an anti-Semitic comment.

You would do better to aim your anger at those who are calling for the destruction of Israel, or those who are attacking Jewish people in the UK.

These articles from two credible organisations the BBC and Human Rights Watch- are more accurate on life in Gaza:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20415675

Debate yes, insult no.

Ok to do to no one.

@CanNeverThinkOfAName I don't know what their treatment will be, but logically they are more useful to Hamas alive. So there is a small chance for them if they are not hit by the bombs.

Apparently 20 hostages were freed yesterday - so maybe some hope

@Efacsen Thank you. I am so glad to hear that.

Your analogy doesn't work because there is no Palestinian territory and there never was. Judea - renamed Palestine by the Roman invaders - was never an autonomous or sovereign country. It was always waiting for the Jews to return. Read my previous posts in the past two pages.