To as you to teach your child how to act around dogs?

[ToBeOrNotToBee]

I'm gobsmacked, truly, still around an hour or so after this event.
Dog and I have had a busy day travelling and exploring the countryside.
On our way home, coming off train 3 of 3 on the return leg, having been out for 12 hours, I walk to the lift (which is around a corner and obscured by a stairwell) at the end of the platform with dog to heel besides me.
We're waiting with a few others when this 5-6 year old child appears around the corner, running towards us, hands outstretched, literally beelining for the dog. I see what's about to happen and immediately put the dog behind my legs and put my hand out telling the child a stern 'No'.
The child then tries to go behind to reach my dog, who is cowering between my legs. I have no choice but to grab hold of the child's coat and physically stop them, letting go when the child stops trying to reach my dog.
After a moment or two, the Dad appears and then screams at me for touching his child. As he's midscream, the lift appears and I go into it with a few others and doors close as everyone else looks awkwardly at their feet.
The doors close, we go on our merry wall.
But I couldn't stop this feeling that the child will one day do that to the wrong dog and end up a dog bite statistic.
Say for example, I wasn't as switched on, and my dog as placid as he is, or in pain that day, and the child did poke him painfully causing him to snap and bite. Child would have been hurt, my dog potentially put down, and I get a conviction for having a Dangerous Dog Out of Control.
It's something I've noticed over recent years, people treating strange dogs as public property and not animals with sharp teeth and their own minds.
So please, teach your children not to run whilst on busy train platforms (or any train platform), to not approach unknown dogs, and if someone says no, to respect it.

Is that too much to ask???

No, it's not all fine. Because, muzzled or not, if my dog takes any steps to communicate the fact that a child (or adult) is making her very uncomfortable or scared, she'd be labelled a dangerous dog and be at risk of death as a result.

That's the imbalance here - the consequences for the right behaviour on the dog's part are way worse than the consequences for the wrong behaviour on the child's part.

A kid comes running up to her and starts grabbing and she does exactly the right thing - growling, rather than biting, to try to get the kid to stop when their parents are too inattentive to train their child properly - and she'll end up confiscated and put down. The worst that would happen to the child is that they're a bit scared (which is also right - they were behaving inappropriately, and won't do it again).

That's why dog owners do things like grab kids who won't back off when told - they're not just having a pop at an unruly kid, they're saving their dog from a potentially life-threatening situation. It doesn't matter how confident they are that their dog won't bite, it doesn't even matter that the dog didn't bite. All it takes is that very same inattentive parent calling the police to say their precious little brat felt threatened, and it's likely game over for the dog who did nothing wrong.

All because folk say "no child should have to learn", when all it takes is spending half an hour teaching them the simplest of warning signs. Yeah, sure, that's perfect.

As you know full well, dog’s claws are not weapons like cats’ are.

Dog bites are very frequent, there are hundreds of thousands every year. Some fatal.

Muzzle your dog.

Yanbu. My kids never approach dogs and they know it’s mainly for their own safety.

They also know some dogs and owners don’t like to be disturbed. I just wish some owners would offer the same courtesy when they let their dog approach everyone and claim it’s just being friendly.

But why? Why can't a parent teach their child how to behave around dogs?

Teach your child.

I repeat, this advice has nothing to do with whether dogs should or should not be muzzled.

The fact is they are not routinely muzzled, and children - everyone - should know how to be safe around them.

@piintheski , all very well, but what if children just charge up before you can take evasive action? Maybe before you’ve even seen them coming?

As a dog lover I do think it’s a shame when children are taught to be afraid of dogs, but at the same time they must be taught always to ask the owner whether it’s all right to approach/stroke them.

🙄

Dogs should be muzzled.

It is not a child’s fault, or their (negligent) parents’ fault if your dog bites a child. Or bites anyone else. It’s your fault as the owner.

You have absolute responsibility.

I don't like dogs, but I agree with you 100%. Nobody should be approaching your dog without permission from you, least of all a small child.

And telling your bitten child that it is the owner's responsibility is going to help how?

Suppose you were travelling to an unfamiliar place. A friend who knew it said: "Don't go into X area after dark, it's notorious for knifepoint muggings." Would you reply:

a. Thanks for the advice, I'll steer clear of it
b. Mugging is illegal. I'll go where I like. Not my responsibility if I get knifed to death.

Agree this is rubbish but I honestly never see it this way round.

I go walking with my son every day and we are constantly accosted by dogs jumping at us, the owners 100m away blindingly shouting their dog is friendly. My son is autistic and does not like dogs to come too close to him as they are unpredictable. I spend every day shielding my son waiting for the owner to catch up to their dog which is all over us.

You're the one walking around with something potentially dangerous, the onus is on the dog owner

Do you teach your children to look before crossing the road?

Presumably not, seeing as drivers are totally responsible for not running your child over, even if they step out without looking onto a 40mph road.

I miss the days when parents taught their children basic personal safety and personal responsibility.

And telling your bitten child that it is the owner's responsibility is going to help how?

By telling him/her that the dog owners will be prosecuted and heavily fined. And their dog destroyed.

The rest of your post just proves my point. The crims you suggest that should be avoided are responsible for any harm, not you. You might take sensible precautions - like not walking in dodgy areas at night - but the responsibility for fault and crime doesn’t transfer to you.

Just like if people avoid dogs: if a dog scares or, much worse, injures someone, whether or not they’ve taken steps to avoid the harm, the crime or legal claim is against you. And people shouldn’t have to change what they do to avoid dogs or harm from dogs.

Muzzle your dogs. Why wouldn’t you? It would help keep you out of trouble.

If your dog is so dangerous that you are worried a child running up to would provoke it to attack I strongly recommend you muzzle it or put it down.

That's absolutely not the case. See my earlier post - it's not just a case of protecting the child from the dog doing the wrong thing, it's protecting the dog because it could be killed as a result of behaving correctly when the child does the wrong thing.

Why don't we teach dog owners not to let their dogs come bounding up to whomever they like?

Then they have the nerve to get shitty with me when my kids react with genuine terror because everyone should love their precious little fur baby (vom).

My children won't approach dogs, because I've taught them to be cautious and quite frankly I can't stand smelly dogs anyway,but even if they did they are unlikely to cause harm to one.
A dog causing harm to a child is a genuine threat though, so keep them away and preferably muzzled, because if you don't ill have to grab your dog and force them away from us.

If you're potentially grabbing my child, you can be damn sure I'll grab your dog, and if it attacked my child, or attempted to, I wouldn't hesitate to kick it.

I am so sick of dogs everywhere and their entitled owners.

The cupboardunderthestairs, you're kind of proving the argument if you're equating a dog to heavy traffic

Not weapons, but they can still do significant damage.

There are many more car accidents every year, some even fatal. What should we do with those? Stick cushions to the front? (Personally, I think a big spike sticking out of the steering wheel would be more a more effective accident deterrent than speed limits or air bags, but hey).

The issue is really about education, both of the children and of the dog owners. It's no surprise that the accident statistics have increased so much in 2022 as the pandemic caused loads of people to get dogs who have no clue how to train them. A well trained and socialised dog is more likely to remove itself from an uncomfortable situation than to bite, however there are an increasing number of untrained and unsocialised dogs. Of course there is a possibility that a dog that has never shown any aggression could bite, but then a piece of space junk could land on my head too.

Muzzling every dog would be a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

The dog - or rather the dog’s owner, legally speaking - is always in the wrong.

You cannot displace blame for harm caused by your dog to someone else, whatever the circumstances.

Unless, I suppose, you have a guard dog that injures a burglar. Children on railway platforms, in parks, on the streets or elsewhere in public are not burglars or any other sort of wrongdoer.

"Why are humans offended by a dogs bark or growl, it isn't personal, it's not equivalent to someone calling you a cunt."

Well, it's worse because it signals that he would like to attack me physically. Why the hell do you think it's OK for dogs to go around threatening people. Last time was in the laundrette. What the hell is an aggressive dog like that doing in the laundrette???

This is like banging my head against a brick wall!

We do not live in a perfect world. We live in a world where people are irresponsible and do wrong things.

We all have to learn to navigate that world - the real world, not an ideal world where every dog is perfectly trained (or muzzled, if that's what you'd like to see).

If you think "telling him/her that the dog owners will be prosecuted and heavily fined. And their dog destroyed" would make up for a serious injury, perhaps lifelong scarring, perhaps even death - you are naive.

You child needs to learn how to survive in the world we live in, not in your utopian vision of the world.

Muzzling every dog would be a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

No it wouldn’t. Overnight success in preventing harm from dogs. Simple to impose and simple to enforce.

Well, it's worse because it signals that he would like to attack me physically.

That's not strictly true. What it is saying is "I'm unhappy with the situation and would like it to stop, either by you moving away, or by me being allowed to move away". So it's a defensive thing more often than aggression.

That last part is pertinent to your second point as the owners are clearly oblivious to the fact that removing the dog from the situation is a viable option too. I would actually say "what the hell is a dog doing in a launderette"? Regardless of whether it is aggressive or not. I'm a dog owner, but I am still wondering why dogs are suddenly allowed everywhere. Parts of some pubs, pet shops, and county shows, but not every shop. Nobody should be growled at.

That doesn’t make a lot of sense.

The real world has rules. I’d like another one, and a simple one: you should have to muzzle your dog.

How would it be simple to enforce? How many police do you think there are? They can't cope with major crime, how quick do you think they'll be round when you call to say "I saw a dog in the park without a muzzle today"?

In principle it is simple to implement, however I suspect the list of things that are higher priority is long enough to mean it wont be discussed in the commons any time soon.

Of course, if you feel that strongly, you could start the Muzzle All Dogs party (MAD), and see if you could get elected. I'd be first in the queue to admit I underestimated public feeling and would buy you a beer.