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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

1000 replies

theotherfossilsister · 07/10/2023 19:48

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

OP posts:
Thread gallery
44
MarySmit · 07/10/2023 22:16

Today Israeli children have been murdered in their homes, beheaded, women raped, civilians taken prisoner. Hamas has distributed videos of the above online. Bodies littered in the streets. This is not 'sad on both sides'. This is an atrocity.

I would hope that any rational person would not defend Hamas in this situation. It is akin to saying that Ukrainian children who have died in the war were asking for it.

JuvenileEmu · 07/10/2023 22:17

TruckDiver · 07/10/2023 21:40

Yes. Not sure why my disapproval of Israel would lead you to think I therefore approve of Saudi Arabia.

The poster who asked "Why is Israel never treated like other countries?" I assumed meant like other average democracies that were not formed out of recent ethnic cleansing and generally obey international law. But if it helps, I'll happily admit that Israel is no worse than Saudi Arabia. Or North Korea.

Or pretty much any country in the world. the US, many European countries, definitely the UK. So you would be happy for civilians in those countries to be raped and slaughtered by "freedom fighters"? Including your loved ones?

WhatWhereWho · 07/10/2023 22:18

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The right to resist does not mean anything and everything is legitimate. HAMAS just cost the Palestinian cause dearly today.

saffronsoup · 07/10/2023 22:19

The Palestinian civilians are the ones who have suffered the most and will suffer the most. Thousands of them have been killed by Israel attacks on Palestine and many thousand (or tens of thousands) will die in this war. What Hamas did was horrific but an Israeli life and a Palestinian life are of the same value to me so I don’t dismiss the thousands of Palestinians who have died. The number of Israeli’s killed is miniscule compared to the number of Palestinians killed. Hamas has started a war that Israel will finish and the ones who will lose are Palestinians.

SomeCatFromJapan · 07/10/2023 22:19

I've always had strong views on the politics of the situation but yes tonight I just want to say how shit and horrible it is for every civilian in a frightening or dangerous situation because of a wider situation outwith their control.

Snugglemonkey · 07/10/2023 22:19

ThornInMySide84 · 07/10/2023 21:03

BBC news right now “a failure of Israeli security”. Fuck off. Somehow it wasn’t a massive failure for Ukraine when they were invaded, was it?

Why is Israel never treated like other countries?

Israel is not like other countries. It is a hostile nation which has grabbed huge swathes of Palestinian land, forcing the people into refugee camps for generations. Palestine has mire in common with Ukraine than Israel.

LakieLady · 07/10/2023 22:20

ClassicCremeAnglaise · 07/10/2023 21:12

I don't quite agree with Israel "screwing" the Palestinian people,

but the rest of your post is spot on.

I agree it's more complex than "screwing", but Israel occupied Gaza for almost 40 years and still controls its borders, water supply and electricity supply. It's understandable that Palestinians are full of resentment.

It's one of those situations where those in control are also in the wrong and, as always, it's the ordinary people that suffer.

Huwipulotu · 07/10/2023 22:20

@Takoneko

m there were many many different groups living in the region. The ottomans split them into viyalets. These viyalets were then split/joined etc to form the new countries of Syria, Lebanon and Jordan with Britain retaining Palestine. And then a large part of what was the viyalet of Palestine was given to Jewish settlers.

these people of Palestine - the Palestinians as well as those from. Neighbouring viyalets who also lost their land rose up to fight against the colonisers. So there were likely to be a wide range of different groups.

i very much hope that justice prevails for the Palestines and that the pre-1967 borders are restored in line with the UN resolutions. That is what the Oslo agreements were about btw. Not the destruction of Israel - just back to 1967. Sadly the Israelis have continued to allow israeli settlers to build on West Bank and the problem just gets bigger and bigger.

oh for people like Yitzhak Rabin.

Spambod · 07/10/2023 22:20

Catsfrontbum · 07/10/2023 20:23

It’s a terribly sad situation. Israel seems to be hell bent on a mass land grab and erasing Palestinians. Palestinians seem to be radicalised en masses from brith to hate all of israel. Meanwhile ordinary people want nothing more than peace.

Israelis just want to be safe. Many Palestinians live and work in Israel. Hamas supporters are happy for their leaders to take all the cash meant for aid and use Israeli money to pay for their electricity and other utilities and hospital treatment. The joke is that Israel supports the Gazan population there hugely and the only peace initiatives have come from Israelis.

BCCoach · 07/10/2023 22:21

ThornInMySide84 · 07/10/2023 21:03

BBC news right now “a failure of Israeli security”. Fuck off. Somehow it wasn’t a massive failure for Ukraine when they were invaded, was it?

Why is Israel never treated like other countries?

The BBC are reporting how this is being viewed as an intelligence failure in Israel. And yes, exactly the same things were said of Ukraine (and the West) when it t was essentially caught napping.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 07/10/2023 22:23

And if that interests you, you could even try the book that describes in forensic detail exactly how that was done

I've read it, @ThisOldWoman - more antisemitic filth, which seeks to blame a conspiracy for things which most saw and heard for themselves

Simonjt · 07/10/2023 22:23

MarySmit · 07/10/2023 22:16

Today Israeli children have been murdered in their homes, beheaded, women raped, civilians taken prisoner. Hamas has distributed videos of the above online. Bodies littered in the streets. This is not 'sad on both sides'. This is an atrocity.

I would hope that any rational person would not defend Hamas in this situation. It is akin to saying that Ukrainian children who have died in the war were asking for it.

A friend lives in Khan Yunis, what you describe is becoming more and more common everyday, and has been for the last 12-18 months.

Spambod · 07/10/2023 22:23

MarySmit · 07/10/2023 22:16

Today Israeli children have been murdered in their homes, beheaded, women raped, civilians taken prisoner. Hamas has distributed videos of the above online. Bodies littered in the streets. This is not 'sad on both sides'. This is an atrocity.

I would hope that any rational person would not defend Hamas in this situation. It is akin to saying that Ukrainian children who have died in the war were asking for it.

Thank you

SoShallINever · 07/10/2023 22:26

AzureBlue99 · 07/10/2023 22:15

What would it take to get world peace. No men. Not going to happen, is it?

No one is calling for the extinction of males, but we need to strive for more women in decision making positions and to have their voices heard.
Anyone got any better ideas?

quiteoldad · 07/10/2023 22:27

Don’t expect Western politicians to do much to change the situation in the Middle East. Whilst there may be criticism from our leaders of one or other side in the conflict, the current situation serves us quite well and so action that radically changes it, is unlikely. Israel is a strong ally of the west in a region that is generally not noted for its love of either America or Europe, and therefore keeping Israel onside is important. Added to that Israel has extremely good pharmaceutical, IT, security and defense industries which are all very useful to us. All that the Palestinians have are blood and bones.

The realpolitik of the Israel / Palestine problem is that Israel is of far more use to us than Palestine. There are 2 ways out of this. Firstly, the Palestinians strike oil and start to have something that will make them our “friend” or secondly, we elect decent politicians who are prepared to make a real effort to resolve the conflict. The rabble that generally rule in the western democracies are more than happy to let this tragedy continue because it suits our economies.

Unfortunately, “ordinary” people like us on this board don’t get much of a say in our foreign policy. It never features highly in any party’s manifesto. At election time politicians get us worrying about the “jam tomorrow” aspect of our lives, and hope that we will leave them to get on with their dealings with other countrys , with those dealings being based on finance rather than morality.

Personally I would round up most of our (and most other countries) politicians and incarcerate them, with the exception of the Norwegians, who I would like to see run the world.

saffronsoup · 07/10/2023 22:28

Spambod · 07/10/2023 22:23

Thank you

It is interesting that rational to you does not include thousands of innocent civilians and children being murdered by Israel as an atrocity. You support one country in murdering children and their parents.

I do not support Hamas nor Israel forces. However I care about children and innocent people on both sides who are murdered and tortured and abused by the other side’s militia.

thisisasurvivor · 07/10/2023 22:28

AutumnCrow · 07/10/2023 19:51

Biden warning that this is not a time for anyone to 'seek advantage'. Good point well made to all 'sides' and civilian groups.

Biden is horrendous beyond belief he does not have the right to say this shit

Hate this man

thisisasurvivor · 07/10/2023 22:29

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Yes x 100

JuvenileEmu · 07/10/2023 22:32

Huwipulotu · 07/10/2023 21:54

The creation of Israel was not an existential threat to Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt or Syria. Suggesting that it was is disingenuous in the extreme

israel was created from the land controlled by the ottomans until the end of WW1. Israel was created by taking land that had previously been occupied by Arabs and giving it to Jewish settlers (who were escaping the rising antisemitism
of Europe in the 1900’s). Christian fundamentalism along with a growing Zionist movement resulted in the Balfour Agreement where Britain committed to a Jewish state despite the fact the very same government persuading the Arabs of Palestine (and beyond) to fight with the Allies against the ottomans in WW1 by promising them autonomy in the region (then known as greater Syria). Britain absolutely screwed the Palestinians.

so call them Syrians or Jordanians or Palestinians or Arabs or whatever - what they were were the original occupiers of the land fighting to keep the land their ancestors had occupied for centuries and centuries which had been taken away from them by Western powers.

the land was never Israel. And no bible or other religious text written thousands of years ago is ever going to persuade me that there is some magical right to a land occupied by others.

Pretty much the borders of the whole of the middle east are recent. Saudi Arabia has only been a country since about a decade before Israel- before that it consisted of different tribes, who were often fighting with each other- . Do you actually know anything about the history of the region? Try a quick read of the history of Saudi Arabia, if you're interested (rhetorical, I know you're not). Jewish people have lived in what is now Israel for millennia, certainly before Islam existed, but how is this way of thinking helpful? For anyone? Endlessly picking over historical grievances?

And even if Israel does uniquely have no claims to exist.....it does exist. So what do you suggest happens?

BCCoach · 07/10/2023 22:33

RosaGallica · 07/10/2023 22:15

Someone said something about intelligence agencies being surprised. I wonder who could be finding this. Someone who benefits from distractions and divisions in the west?

It’s hardly a big secret that Hamas are funded by Iran and have been for the past 30 years.

ketchup07070 · 07/10/2023 22:33

It's problematic that there are Israeli hostages inside Gaza which means the usual bombing is not an option. Does this mean Israel will go in on the ground? Or will they take hostages as well, maybe from west bank? They said they will give heavy reprisals, but that seems difficult when they have hostages to recover.

WhatWhereWho · 07/10/2023 22:33

AzureBlue99 · 07/10/2023 22:15

What would it take to get world peace. No men. Not going to happen, is it?

Because there are no female extremists in this conflict?

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 07/10/2023 22:39

I wonder if all the free Palestine people have actually:

a) Been to Isreal

or

b) read a history of the Middle East.

Some of these posts are very focused on a single era of events as thought that is the only time that is legitimate.

These people might be stunned to discover that their facts make up a tiny amount of the history and cultural background of the matter.

And guess what: still not a justification for slaughtering people in cold blood. That video is not a fake. It has been fact checked by eyewitness accounts. Barbaric.

TheHouseonHauntedHill · 07/10/2023 22:40

I honestly can't see how any posts for or agaisnt either side justify those pics of those poor women being targeted by men today.

It just looks like an excuse to rape and kill women.

Subtlety1985 · 07/10/2023 22:41

Hummingbird233 · 07/10/2023 19:55

If any other country attacked another, people would be calling that country out.

Palestinians attack Israel, killing and hurting mass people - "it's sad on both sides".

WTF. Let's call this as it is. It's atrocious that Hamas, a terrorist organisation, gets to bomb civilians and hide behind a long standing conflict. What they've done is awful.

You mention a ‘long standing conflict’ - do you know the history of this conflict? I can’t imagine you do. Your comment is completely ignorant.

My thoughts are with Palestine and also the Israeli civilians caught up in this. Its horrendous.

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