To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

This

Awful what happened there. Truly tragic and I wish they both would leave civilians alone.
HOWEVER: I am fed up with the narrative the news outlets are running with when they say these attacks were "unprovoked"

Come on! No one does this for shits and giggles out of the blue!.

1)Thousands of settlers have been carrying out provocative tours of the mosque complex following calls by ultranationalist Jewish groups. Even though according to Jewish law, entering any part of the Al Aqsa Mosque compound, also known as the Temple Mount, is forbidden for Jews due to the sacred nature of the site. They did it anyway.

2)Police imposed age restrictions and prevented young Palestinians from entering the mosque during the incursions AND the Israeli army forced Palestinians to shut down their stores in the Old City to allow Jewish prayers to take place.

3. These ultranationalist groups were spitting at Christians and old churches too.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-02/ty-article/.premium/jews-behind-dozens-of-spitting-attacks-on-christian-worshippers-in-jerusalem/0000018a-f0c4-d428-a3ba-f0c75a490000

To everyone saying Israel didn’t exist before recently and was created on another countries land, I’m just wondering how you feel
about Ukraine?

What's been done to Jewish people throughout history is a fucking disgrace!

The creation of Israel was not an existential threat to Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt or Syria. Suggesting that it was is disingenuous in the extreme

israel was created from the land controlled by the ottomans until the end of WW1. Israel was created by taking land that had previously been occupied by Arabs and giving it to Jewish settlers (who were escaping the rising antisemitism
of Europe in the 1900’s). Christian fundamentalism along with a growing Zionist movement resulted in the Balfour Agreement where Britain committed to a Jewish state despite the fact the very same government persuading the Arabs of Palestine (and beyond) to fight with the Allies against the ottomans in WW1 by promising them autonomy in the region (then known as greater Syria). Britain absolutely screwed the Palestinians.

so call them Syrians or Jordanians or Palestinians or Arabs or whatever - what they were were the original occupiers of the land fighting to keep the land their ancestors had occupied for centuries and centuries which had been taken away from them by Western powers.

the land was never Israel. And no bible or other religious text written thousands of years ago is ever going to persuade me that there is some magical right to a land occupied by others.

So because of things so people have done recently and some people have done in the past it is now totally fine to kill other people?

God human beings are fucked up. No wonder we haven’t gotten our shit together.

This thread alone is a great illustration of why nationalistic/ religious drum banging rhetoric is so dangerous. I doubt any of the events occurring today will ultimately lead to peace- violence never does. Anyone blathering about things that happened in 1947 as a justification for killing innocent people has a screw loose and probably needs to spend less time on the internet.

I'm not sure anyone can in a non partisan way. It's been going on for as long as I can remember, and I'm 20 years older than you. As far as I can see, Neither side wants the other to exist. Neither side is reasonable, both sides are supported financially by other countries getting involved and pouring money and arms into the conflict. But the minute the US decides to leave Israel to it, they will get annihilated by those around them, so they continue, and so Iran fund Hamas. It really seem it will never end. Not least because the Israeli and Palestinian leaders have no intention of even attempting peace. A two state solution would be best, with a proper Palestinian homeland but it's not happening, and probably would do nothing to end the antagonism between the parties.

So because of things so people have done recently and some people have done in the past it is now totally fine to kill other people?

I don't get as this is a British site, by the above logic we are fucked!

If the kind of filth this anti semite spouts interests you, try this where he blames Israel's influence for Corbyn's defeat too: https://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-israel-stalwarts-blame-zionists-and-jews-for-corbyns-defeat-in-uk-election/

I worked alongside (though thankfully not with him) in the community and IMO the man's pure evil - one of those people who's face matches his personality exactly

They are referring to the attack being a surprise. Everyone knew that the Ukraine war was coming. This attack would have involved a lot of planning and that Israel security didn't see this coming is a massively surprising failure (considering their generally considered some of the best in the world).

I totally agree!

but the irony is that it is the Christians who are by far the most antisemitic. Yet somehow the Christian’s have managed to change the narrative and blame it all on the Muslims!

the crusades - when Christian’s marched to Palestine to reclaim the holy lands from the Muslims - included horrific pogroms against Jewish communities in Eastern Europe.

jewish people have been horrifically persecuted though most think it is just a WW2 thing. And the CIA actively recruited former Nazis after WW2 because they saw them as a good way to help prevent spread communism. Many in US and UK upper echelons also sympathised with Nazis pre WW2.

christians have done an absolute number on the Jewish and Muslim people.

What other country's land was Ukraine created on? The Soviet Socialist Republic of Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, and modern Ukraine was created by its inhabitants after that Union's demise. Noone was ethnically cleansed in order to create it, were they?

Anyone blathering about things that happened in 1947

what the actual fuck? Would you say to a Jewish person bringing up the Holocaust that they were “blathering on”???

the Holocaust is one of the most appalling acts of humanity ever and it’s impact is still felt ever single day. The idea that just because it happened 80+ years ago and is therefore irrelevant shows a very embarrassing gap in your understanding of how history works.

The events of 1947 (and indeed of many decades before then) are extremely relevant today. Shame on you for not recognising that.

If the kind of filth this anti semite spouts interests you, try this where he blames Israel's influence for Corbyn's defeat too: https://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-israel-stalwarts-blame-zionists-and-jews-for-corbyns-defeat-in-uk-election/

And if that interests you, you could even try the book that describes in forensic detail exactly how that was done:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Weaponising-Anti-Semitism-Asa-Winstanley/dp/1682193810/ref=sr_1_1?crid=RZBX90VWK58Z&keywords=weaponizing+antisemitism&qid=1696712684&sprefix=weaponizin%2Caps%2C69&sr=8-1

Are you saying that the Palestinians are not a distinct people with any right to a nation state of their own? That they should just have been grateful to live in an “Arab” state of any kind and therefore it wouldn’t have mattered if other Arab countries just carved up Palestine between them and ruled over a bit each because the Palestinians aren’t really a distinct people but just the same as Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians?

I don’t think you’re quite as in step with the Palestinian people as you think you are.

I suspect you'd change your tune if your neighbours had been firing rockets at you daily for years (and if you got your facts right).

Men, that's our problem.
Anything for a fight. I am certain if women led those nations there would be more effort put in to finding a peaceful solution.
My grandmother was Iranian, I feel so much for all those oppressed women in the world and those who are grieving today, whatever side of the barbed wire they live on.

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

It is awful for everyone, but I particularly feel for the children in Gaza. Israel could resolve tensions if they were prepared to hand back some of the control of the west bank that they seized in 1967. Currently far more Palestinians live in the west bank than Israelis (3 million v 600,000), yet Israel occupy it and control the movement of Palestinians within it. The UN and most international communities believe Israel's occupation to be unlawful. They have separated the Palestinian nation into Gaza and The West Bank, trapping those in Gaza. Those in Gaza are only allowed to enter the Westbank for emergency hospital treatment, but not other important events such as attending a wedding or funeral. As such they are unable to form relationships with other Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel for all intents and purpose occupy Gaza. They control its air and sea space and bridges. They hold control of all their utilities (electricity and water). They have seized land to create a buffer zone between the two countries. Gaza is the 3rd most populated country on earth and the conditions there are awful.

That's not to condone terrorism of course and they have a right to defend themselves, but unfortunately, due to the high density of Gaza, the impact of any attacks is always disproportionate and so many children have been killed.

There is no longer support for a 2 state solution on either side (only 40%ish in support on either side). People have lost hope. And largely, it would involve Israel handing back control of the Palastinian section of the West Bank that they currently occupy. In fact, the two state solution is pretty much the plan that existed before the 1967 war. And the Palestinians have been so riled and suppressed for so long that there is growing support for them seizing back a greater proportion of the west bank going back as far as the sea.

The only solution that I can see is for Israel to hand back land back to the Palestinians and see if that starts to calm tensions and lift travel restrictions within the west bank. I don't think unfortunately that they can lift restrictions in Gaza for a long time yet, having poked the bear far too many times and for too long. They could however, move some of their buffer zone back in places and provide more humanitarian aid to those in Gaza or allow some vulnerable families with young children into The West Bank or parts of Israel and gradually get some onside.

Instead however, they have a bullish Prime Minister intent on war and the backing of the US.

There are female extremists on both sides calling for violence.

@Huwipulotu I wasn’t referring to the holocaust. How has the holocaust got anything to do with anything that is happening between Israel and Palestine right now?

I was talking about the people blathering on about whether Isreal should be a state based on the global geopolitics of the 40’s and who did what to who in the creation of the state is Isreal.

I am mostly arguing that what is happening today is disgusting and there is no defence for it. How you took that to be a comment about the holocaust i have no idea!!

Read some books and the news?

Someone said something about intelligence agencies being surprised. I wonder who could be finding this. Someone who benefits from distractions and divisions in the west?

What would it take to get world peace. No men. Not going to happen, is it?

Funding, not finding.