Page 3 | To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

theotherfossilsister · 2023-10-07T18:48:17+00:00

Please From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

ClassicCremeAnglaise · 07/10/2023 21:12

Takoneko · 07/10/2023 21:04

This is a horrible situation and civilians on both sides are going to suffer horribly. What is being done to civilians in Israel turns my stomach. It’s horrifying, and it will do nothing to help the people of Palestine.

The lessons of history tell us that Israel will win and the reprisals against Gaza will be devastating.

The international community has turned away from Israel-Palestine for decades. This has not come out of nowhere, the international community has allowed this to reach this point. Hamas wouldn’t even exist if the international community had taken responsibility for putting UN Resolution 181 into practice properly in 1948. Instead the world voted on the creation of Israel, patted itself on the back, and then did fuck all as the situation descended into chaos. The issues from the 1948-49 war have never been resolved. That’s a ridiculous amount of time to have left this situation simmering. Hamas are a product of the intifada, which was itself a product of decades of pent up frustration at international inaction. They didn’t just come out of nowhere.

I think it’s also worth noting that neighbouring Arab states have also been instrumental in screwing over the Palestinian people, it isn’t just Israel who have done that. Between 1949 and 1967 Gaza and the West Bank were under Egyptian and Jordanian occupation respectively. If a properly functioning Palestinian government had been set up instead to run those places then the situation now might be very different. The fact is that those countries had no interest in freeing Palestine when they had the chance. The Arab League didn’t recognise Palestinian leadership through the PLO until 1964. Palestinian civilians have now been totally fucked over by their own leadership. Hamas have just condemned the people of Gaza to obliteration. It’s depressing as fuck.

I don't quite agree with Israel "screwing" the Palestinian people,

but the rest of your post is spot on.

kαλοκαλοκαιρι · 07/10/2023 21:13

kαλοκαλοκαιρι · 07/10/2023 21:10

Respectfully, I think this is a bit reductive. Using this logic you can easily say the opposite is true too. That the ‘democracy’ Israel has been responsible for the deaths of over 200 palestinian civilians this year alone (prior to today’s events). Or that the same state is using collective punishment- a prohibited war crime by the geneva convention.

That is not to say that I wish to use anything in the above paragraph to justify the targeting of innocent civilian, which is reprehensible and indefensible in any scenario, no matter the perpetrator. But I think the nuance here that’s getting overlooked is that not every Palestinian fighting for freedom is Hamas are they? Israel makes every day under apartheid a living hell for Palestinians in Gaza. The average age there is 18. It’s been under blockade since 2007, without access to adequate water, eduxation, health supplies; electricit, in horrific population density and poverty.

Some people today are stepping outside of this open-air prison for the first time in their lives. For me; it’s as I saw someone write earlier, “We can condemn Hamas as an entity and mourn the loss of every civilian in conflict without losing sight of the fact that Israel and its decades of violent occupation and brutality are to blame.”

I’m terrified for friends on both sides of the wall in Tel Aviv and the West Bank tonight. But you can’t blame an oppressed group of people for fighting back against their oppression.

My opinion only.

sorry my reply was meant to to the person who said it was just a case of Israel, a democracy being attacked by terrorists. That’s what I was respectfully calling reductive, not the OP’s post …

Huwipulotu · 07/10/2023 21:14

In the late 1800’s the land that is now Israel was 90% arab (Palestinian)

in 1947 the new Israeli stake ethnically cleansed Palestine as much as they could leading to 800,000+ Palestinians being forced out of their homes and lands they had occupied for centuries.

the remaining Palestinians are now confined to increasingly shrinking land and, especially in the case of Gaza, live in appalling conditions. Israel is in breach of several UN resolutions and continues to build settlement on land which is - as agreed by UN in 1947 - Palestinian.

of course the killing of of civilians and the degrading of women is abhorrent and I am absolutely not defending that, but the truth about how the Palestinians have been absolutely shat on by Israel, the west (particularly Britain and the US) as well as their Arab neighbours is continually hidden and conveniently forgotten.

it is an absolute fucking disgrace that 100 years later we are still happy to forget about the Palestinian plight

and also - Israeli terrorists are perfectly happy to kill women and children and innocent civilians. That’s exactly what they did to get Britain out of Palestine (look up Irgun) and also look up the terrorist attack on civilian Palestinians in 1994

(and just a quick final word - the Israeli prime minister who did most to work with Palestinians Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish terrorist who was completely against the concessions - Oslo peace accords of 1993 - he was making to Palestinians. Rabin was an incredible and brave man and it is a disaster he was murdered by a fellow Israeli as he was trying to seek peace)

Takoneko · 07/10/2023 21:16

duchiebun · 07/10/2023 21:06

Instead the world voted on the creation of Israel, patted itself on the back, and then did fuck all as the situation descended into chaos.

This is always ignored.

Always. Israel was invaded by five neighbouring states (not Palestine) on day one of its existence and the rest of the world lifted not a finger to step in and restore peace and enforce the borders they’d voted for less than a year earlier. And when Israel, against the odds, won that war the world looked the other way whilst what was meant to be the new Palestinian state was occupied by Israel, Jordan and Egypt. The 1947 partition plan was a piece of pie in the sky idealist nonsense and there was no plan whatsoever for actually making it happen peacefully and secure and establish the agreed borders.

etmoietmoietmoi · 07/10/2023 21:18

Rabin was an incredible and brave man and it is a disaster he was murdered by a fellow Israeli as he was trying to seek peace

Yes this, what an utter tragedy his assassination was.

Thisusernamenotavailable · 07/10/2023 21:22

Men start wars and women get raped. Wherever that footage is from it has happened and it makes me furious.

LindorDoubleChoc · 07/10/2023 21:24

There are entrenched views on both sides so civil discussion is never going to be possible, not even on a moderate site like Mumsnet. But I don't think the threads should be deleted. There will be strong disagreements and passion and rhetoric - but this is what the conflict is all about. Pretending it isn't (because we are a nice website where we are KIND to each other) is pointless.

ketchup07070 · 07/10/2023 21:26

I am so worried for the people in Gaza. I think half the population there are kids. It's already been decreed unliveable by the UN. Most densely populated area in the world, 16 square miles. Heavy retaliation may mean they will be wiped out completely, impossible to bomb it without killing many civilians. They have suffered so much, it's unbearable.

Green777 · 07/10/2023 21:27

Hamas have cheapened the cause of the Palestinian people

JuvenileEmu · 07/10/2023 21:27

nottaotter · 07/10/2023 21:00

@FlemishHorse I had not even considered this. I really hope this was fake. How are fake videos done? On a computer or fake scenes , if you see what I mean?

Of course the videos aren't fake
Unless Hamas have decided to fake videos of themselves committing atrocities and upload them to the internet

TruckDiver · 07/10/2023 21:28

Why is Israel never treated like other countries?

Because it isn't like other countries. It was formed less than 60 years ago by ethnically cleansing a bunch of Palestinians from their own homeland and setting up an artificial state to safeguard western interests in the region. It maintains its religious and cultural identity by imposing apartheid on many of the people under its control and treating them as second class citizens with rights barely better than animals.

Huwipulotu · 07/10/2023 21:28

Israel did not exist before 1947. These states just fought back for what had been taken away from them. It was an existential fight.

it is completely ingenious to suggest Israel was attacked immediately because the neighbouring states wanted the destruction of Jews. Jews had lived in Palestine (about 5% of population) for centuries - getting along well with Arabs. Of course these people were going to try to fight back for the land that had just been taken away from them by the British.

Autumnunmasks · 07/10/2023 21:29

Huwipulotu · 07/10/2023 21:28

Israel did not exist before 1947. These states just fought back for what had been taken away from them. It was an existential fight.

it is completely ingenious to suggest Israel was attacked immediately because the neighbouring states wanted the destruction of Jews. Jews had lived in Palestine (about 5% of population) for centuries - getting along well with Arabs. Of course these people were going to try to fight back for the land that had just been taken away from them by the British.

This

Thisisashocker · 07/10/2023 21:30

Green777 · 07/10/2023 21:27

Hamas have cheapened the cause of the Palestinian people

I think you have summed this up really well. These poor Palestinian people are going to really feel this …feel sick for them 😩

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 07/10/2023 21:31

The take away is that there are now winner here, aside from the people who make arms.

Cheering on a war because of religion or politics is gross. Innocent people will die because so people are so attached to their historic slights and hate filled agendas that they can kill and call it righteous.

JuvenileEmu · 07/10/2023 21:32

Huwipulotu · 07/10/2023 21:28

Israel did not exist before 1947. These states just fought back for what had been taken away from them. It was an existential fight.

it is completely ingenious to suggest Israel was attacked immediately because the neighbouring states wanted the destruction of Jews. Jews had lived in Palestine (about 5% of population) for centuries - getting along well with Arabs. Of course these people were going to try to fight back for the land that had just been taken away from them by the British.

So, are you saying that Israel shouldn't exist? What do you see as the solution to this?

autumniscomingsoon · 07/10/2023 21:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Hamas is categorised as a terrorise organisation by the U.K.government, just to be clear

PeachesoutinGeorgia · 07/10/2023 21:34

Could someone please explain this like I’m 5, I’ve been trying to understand it for years. Also I don’t know how to type this without being offensive, but why do people get in trouble for “supporting” the wrong side. I feel like there might be a political aspect which maybe I’m not understanding

As I said have spent years trying to figure it out. I swear this war has been going on since I was about 2 years old (am 30 now) so have I missed something on that bit as well? Just genuinely confused.

TruckDiver · 07/10/2023 21:35

Not sure exactly what your question is.

JuvenileEmu · 07/10/2023 21:36

TruckDiver · 07/10/2023 21:28

Why is Israel never treated like other countries?

Because it isn't like other countries. It was formed less than 60 years ago by ethnically cleansing a bunch of Palestinians from their own homeland and setting up an artificial state to safeguard western interests in the region. It maintains its religious and cultural identity by imposing apartheid on many of the people under its control and treating them as second class citizens with rights barely better than animals.

You see, this is what I have a problem with. This attitude by some people that Israel is uniquely bad. Have a look at what Saudi Arabia is getting up to in Yemen. That's if you actually care about the lives of people in the middle east. Do you?

Justhereforaibu1 · 07/10/2023 21:37

kαλοκαλοκαιρι · 07/10/2023 21:10

Respectfully, I think this is a bit reductive. Using this logic you can easily say the opposite is true too. That the ‘democracy’ Israel has been responsible for the deaths of over 200 palestinian civilians this year alone (prior to today’s events). Or that the same state is using collective punishment- a prohibited war crime by the geneva convention.

That is not to say that I wish to use anything in the above paragraph to justify the targeting of innocent civilian, which is reprehensible and indefensible in any scenario, no matter the perpetrator. But I think the nuance here that’s getting overlooked is that not every Palestinian fighting for freedom is Hamas are they? Israel makes every day under apartheid a living hell for Palestinians in Gaza. The average age there is 18. It’s been under blockade since 2007, without access to adequate water, eduxation, health supplies; electricit, in horrific population density and poverty.

Some people today are stepping outside of this open-air prison for the first time in their lives. For me; it’s as I saw someone write earlier, “We can condemn Hamas as an entity and mourn the loss of every civilian in conflict without losing sight of the fact that Israel and its decades of violent occupation and brutality are to blame.”

I’m terrified for friends on both sides of the wall in Tel Aviv and the West Bank tonight. But you can’t blame an oppressed group of people for fighting back against their oppression.

My opinion only.

I agree with everything you say

Takoneko · 07/10/2023 21:39

Huwipulotu · 07/10/2023 21:28

Israel did not exist before 1947. These states just fought back for what had been taken away from them. It was an existential fight.

it is completely ingenious to suggest Israel was attacked immediately because the neighbouring states wanted the destruction of Jews. Jews had lived in Palestine (about 5% of population) for centuries - getting along well with Arabs. Of course these people were going to try to fight back for the land that had just been taken away from them by the British.

With the exception of Egypt none of those neighbouring countries had existed for very long either. Jordan only became independent from Britain in 1946, two years earlier than Israel (which actually didn’t come into existence until 1948). The creation of Israel was not an existential threat to Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt or Syria. Suggesting that it was is disingenuous in the extreme. And if those countries were worried about the existential threat to the Palestinians then it is odd that instead of handing control of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza back over to the Palestinian people in 1949, instead they occupied those areas with their armies until Israel beat them in another war in 1967.

TruckDiver · 07/10/2023 21:40

JuvenileEmu · 07/10/2023 21:36

You see, this is what I have a problem with. This attitude by some people that Israel is uniquely bad. Have a look at what Saudi Arabia is getting up to in Yemen. That's if you actually care about the lives of people in the middle east. Do you?

Show quote history

Yes. Not sure why my disapproval of Israel would lead you to think I therefore approve of Saudi Arabia.

The poster who asked "Why is Israel never treated like other countries?" I assumed meant like other average democracies that were not formed out of recent ethnic cleansing and generally obey international law. But if it helps, I'll happily admit that Israel is no worse than Saudi Arabia. Or North Korea.

Queucumber · 07/10/2023 21:42

Palestinians have murdered Israeli civilians. They’ve kidnapped Israeli women. They stripped the corpse of one woman and drove it around in public. Hamas have uploaded videos of this.

They had growing international support. Their narrative of a struggle for freedom was widely accepted. Israel’s position was becoming more and more isolated. Now they look like nothing more than antisemitic terrorists motivated by hate.

Takoneko · 07/10/2023 21:43

That second Syria should obviously read Lebanon.