To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

What would be the point of the Israelis taking hostages? Do you really think Hamas care about the lives of ordinary Palestinians? They would be happy for thousands of ordinary Palestinians to die if it furthered their cause- the eradication of the Israelis.

They said they will give heavy reprisals, but that seems difficult when they have hostages to recover.

Horrific as this sounds, do you think they are expecting to recover any hostage alive ? What demands would they be willing to submit to, to ensure the safe return of a hostage ?

This

In 1967 the Palestinians controlled no land. The situation for Palestinians in 1967 was bleak. In many ways living conditions in Gaza and the West Bank were actually worse under the Jordanian and Egyptian occupations.

I also just can’t agree with anyone characterising the invasion of Israel in 1948 by Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon as them rising up to fight the colonisers. That’s just a willful warping of the history, regardless of how much I might disagree with much of Israel’s policies towards the Palestinian people now. Israel was not the power that it is now back then. They came very close to being a footnote in history… an idea the UN had in the 40s that didn’t work out.

I’d also love to see a peace based on the Oslo Accords. I think it gets les and less likely as time goes on though. The world has allowed illegal Israeli settlements to proliferate in a way that makes that solution increasingly untenable.

@Dymaxion I think they will do everything possible to recover the hostages. I don't know about demands, but I think they'd consider hostage swops, surely.

@WhatWhereWho There may be women involved now, but men started it, just like they start every other conflict. Men are a global problem.

100%

My ex mother in law has been to both Israel and Palestine many times for work, she last went last year. She does not support Israels occupation. She said the majority of the people she met there were very lovely and welcoming though, same as in Palestine. She also has a degree in Geopolitics and International Affairs I think it was, so she's very well read when it comes to matters of the middle east. I spoke with her earlier actually because of everything going on today and she WhatsApped me some photos from her last visit there.

I think it's pretty ignorant of you to assume that those supporting Palestine must have never been there or must not be well read. 🙄

@Dymaxion I also think keeping hostages alive is leverage, so I hope very much they will survive. It is all horrific, you are right.

Disgraceful

@Ratsoffasinkingsauage

Huwi was making the point that the past dictates the future and that, although a similar number of years has passed, we don't just resign the Holocaust to a thing of the past and tell people to get over it.

Ironically though, the Holocaust is highly relevant to the situation in Israel today given that a significant number of eastern Europeans fled Europe in search of safety in numbers and how the very fear of persecution (which still exists today) has caused their defensive attitude.

@MsLavender

So that’s your ex-mother in law that’s been to Israel.

And because she went there and you have a second hand account of things from her you support what Hamas are doing?

My problem with this issue is that it is horribly cultish. Anyone who watches a video of children being executed in the streets and still
managed to trot out statements about geopolitics and history to justify not condemning that behaviour has been brainwashed by politics/ religion/ social media.

Utterly disgusting.

And because she went there and you have a second hand account of things from her you support what Hamas are doing?

Is that what I said? No, it's what you inferred from what I said.

You asked a question regarding people who support Palestine and if they had ever been there. I answered and because it wasn't to your liking and didn't support your narrative you're on the defensive and it's pathetic.

Being in 'fear of persecution after the holocaust' does excuse the abhorrent treatment of the Palestinians.

@Oioicaptain

It is horrific to bring up the holocaust in this context. It has no bearing on what is going on right now. None at all. Bringing it up in conversation to justify a very one sided view of the history of Israel is pretty bigoted.

Keeping the memory of a horrific genocide alive to help people of the future learn lessons is one thing. It is quite another excuse raping women to death and shooting families in the street because of historic abuses.

Where does that cycle ever end. It doesn’t. It will all just go round and round forever. It is mutually assured destruction.

Are you not equally as brainwashed to not be bothered or disgusted by the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinian children and people over the past decades? You are fine with murdering children as long as they are on the ‘wrong’ side of the fence. Don’t you see the disgust in that?

Many people who are supporters of Palestinian people and their right to life and land are not supportive or supporters of Hamas and are disgusted and horrified by the attacks on innocent civilians and children on both sides.

Where does that cycle ever end. It doesn’t. It will all just go round and round forever. It is mutually assured destruction.

It won't because no one can go back in time & change things but we will constantly argue about what happened historically.

Have listened to a good deal of news coverage today. Whilst clearly no one can agree on anything right now, the one thing that stood out (and everyone can hopefully agree on) was the Israeli journalist who was asked to comment on Russia's statement: "We are calling for a ceasefire".

"How about they get out of Ukraine first before telling us what to do".

'No one is calling for the extinction of males, but we need to strive for more women in decision making positions and to have their voices heard.'

Actually, I am. I think that it's a bloody good idea to get rid of the vast majority of men. Life would be considerably easier to be fair!

@MsLavender

Your mother in law is one person. Just because she has actually been does not mean that the thousands of free Palestine people on Twitter are even half as educated.

There is sadly a lot of anti-Semitic prejudice in British left wing politics. Some of the things I’ve seen posted online today are the worst of post truth social media garbage.

The only people who are pathetic today are the ones who’ve been trying to be fucking edge lords and defend the indefensible because it suits their politics.

It is possible to be disapproving of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians and also condem Hamas and their actions today. Because they have actually fucked everyone in that area for the foreseeable. I’m sure they have their reasons but they are shit reasons. Anyone starting up with the ‘well in 1947…’ is just propping up that shit position.

@Subtlety1985 I do actually, probably more so than you. So thanks for the patronising comment, but I disagree. My post isn't ignorant at all.

Are your thoughts genuinely with the 250 Israelis who have been murdered and thousands who have been hurt? Or are you just saying that to appear less biased?

Look at the reaction around the world, the anti-semitism. This is a horrible situation and Hamas caused it last night. No one else is to blame for the rockets and kidnappings. Obviously there's history, but it's complex, mainly due to various heritages being in Israel in past centuries.

Or is Israel to blame for the rockets? And kidnappings? Is that on them too?

Now is not the time to blaming men FFS! The majority of lives lost today will be men fighting to protect their wives, children and their country. Many will be mourning the loss of loved ones and will spend months if not years searching for family members gone missing in the conflict. When war arrives here, which it will at one point or another, it will be mainly men who go out to war to fight for yours and your families lives as they did in WW1 and WW2 and it will be mainly men who pay the price with their lives. You'd be happy for the world to be rid of your male family members would you? There are billions of men on this planet and thankfully very few of them are warmongers.

@saffronsoup

You have assumed a lot about me and it is all wrong. 0 hit points. I do think all human rights violations are disgusting.

But I don’t think more violence is ever the answer to violence. Exactly how is what is happening today actually helping the people of Palestine.

This is just like a giant version of ‘well he had a bad childhood so we can blame him for committing all those murders’. It’s insane.

I haven’t read one post defending Hamas actions. You can condemn the Israeli authorities for their ongoing treatment of Palestinian civilians without supporting hamas. I don’t support Hamas at all nor do I blame ordinary Israeli civilians for what has happened.

The Israeli authorities will launch a disproportionate attach on civilians in Gaza now who already live in horrendous conditions due to the blockade.

to comment on Russia's statement: "We are calling for a ceasefire".

"How about they get out of Ukraine first before telling us what to do".

But Russia's argument would be Ukraine is Russia & the West should stop telling them what to do.