Page 40 | To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

theotherfossilsister · 2023-10-07T18:48:17+00:00

Please From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 19:29

@DuvetsAndDreams

How much power do you think a starving and dehydrated mother and her kids has, for example? How should she remove Hamas?

I am wondering as I read this post, if maybe she does have power. Hamas are recruiting into their terrorist cells, mostly young people. I think for them to be removed, they have to lose the support of the people. They can then refuse to join them, refuse to help then, refuse to hide them. I am not sure how feasible that is.

IslaWinds · 09/10/2023 19:30

etmoietmoietmoi · 09/10/2023 19:26

@IslaWinds Well, what do you think the 'Zionist movement' actually is?

The Zionist movement didn’t affect Palestine/Israel until 1948.
That is when the conflict started.
No one had issue with Jewish immigrants moving to the region prior to this.

IslaWinds · 09/10/2023 19:32

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 19:22

I definitely know that Zionism is not post-WWII because the Balfour Declaration was either during of after the first world war.

I don't understand the rest of your answer though. Why didn't the Arabs want the Jews to get a state when the British first offered one to both of them as they were on the way out?

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The British and UN did no such thing.

W0tnow · 09/10/2023 19:32

etmoietmoietmoi · 09/10/2023 18:52

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

You're straying into antisemitism now.

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I’m really fucking not. I’m asking a question.

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 19:34

@IslaWinds

The Zionist movement didn’t affect Palestine/Israel until 1948
That is when the conflict started
No one had issue with Jewish immigrants moving to the region prior to this

Yes they did, they were kicking off about it like mad for ages. The British had to limit visas to something like 15k a year because the Arabs were completely against any more Jews long before 1948.

Takoneko · 09/10/2023 19:35

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 19:19

@Takoneko

Ok that's an answer thank you. I can understand being pissed off if the Brits first promised it to you then said actually we're going to give some to the Jews.

But why did the Arab leadership feel the land was theirs? They knew the Jews had always been there too, right? They knew they had placed the Jews under conditions of dhimmitude for, well, a long time. Wouldn't letting them have their own state where they wouldn't be dhimmis anymore have been, you know, kind of a decent thing to do to make up for that? Unless of course there was zero remorse for the whole dhimmi business? I mean, I can think of another group who got in quite a lot of hot water about putting yellow stars on Jews.

Because they had been the majority population for centuries. They saw Jewish claims on the land as being historic and felt that Europe were trying to offload millions of European Jewish refugees onto Palestine rather than deal with the tricky problem of all those displaced Jewish people returning to their home countries and asking awkward questions like “can I have back my house and my other stolen property that was illegally looted by the Nazis?”. They felt that Europe was making Palestine take the brunt of what was a European refugee crisis. Why Palestine rather than letting the Jews have Bavaria?

Slowlylosingmymind101 · 09/10/2023 19:37

I think it'd amazing that Ukraine are allowed to fight back for their land and lives with bombs and fighting. But Palestine can't.

This was isn't about being against Jews or Israel. There are many Christians, Muslims and Jewish Palestinians living in Palestine side by side and very happy to do so. This wad is about taking what isn't yours. Treating the people of Palestine as animals. Israel have done horrific things to.women and children for years.

Km.not agreeing with hamas approach. But the Palestinions are well within their rights to fight back and should do so.

Those killed in israel where on illegally occupied land. They chose to be there. They chose to take this land from people. They chose to move in and create and live on a war zone.

AhNowTed · 09/10/2023 19:37

1dayatatime · 09/10/2023 19:13

@Whereforartthoudave

"Cutting off food, water, power to a population who have no other access to food, water, power IS targeting civilians.

Just as Hamas attacked civilians, now Israel is"

++++

Seriously this so warped. So you want Israel to continue supplying food, water and electricity to the same Palestinian civilians that are celebrating the terrorist attacks.

Gaza is its own entity with its own Government (Hamas) - why is it the responsibility of Israel to supply these nutters with food, water and electricity.

Personally I think it is the pragmatic thing to do and far safer than sending Israeli forces into the vipers nest that is Gaza.

I am sure that a couple of weeks of no food and water will help focus minds and priorities amongst the Palestinians in Gaza and encourage them to remove Hamas from power, After all without food and water what have you got to lose?

"I am sure that a couple of weeks of no food and water will help focus minds and priorities amongst the Palestinians in Gaza and encourage them to remove Hamas from power, After all without food and water what have you got to lose?"

I don't resort to this language as a rule, but there is something wrong with you.

Only a sociopath would suggest starving women and children into submission, in the entirety futile hope they could overthrow a fanatical regime.

Words fucking fail me at the level of ignorance.

Slowlylosingmymind101 · 09/10/2023 19:38

Also if Israel wants to make this about religion, you would think after the holocaust they would be against genocide and would never have started this in the first place.

IslaWinds · 09/10/2023 19:38

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 19:34

@IslaWinds

The Zionist movement didn’t affect Palestine/Israel until 1948
That is when the conflict started
No one had issue with Jewish immigrants moving to the region prior to this

Yes they did, they were kicking off about it like mad for ages. The British had to limit visas to something like 15k a year because the Arabs were completely against any more Jews long before 1948.

”the Arabs”? The British controlled Palestine then as a League of Nations mandate. There was no “Arab” decision made about visas.

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 19:38

MMBaranova · 09/10/2023 19:29

@Pollyputhekettleon ·

>I, among many others here, are trying to understand the roots of this historically. As far back as we need to go...

I think that is fine and understandable, although as someone with a reasonable grasp of the 'roots' I would also say that it is legitimate to also note / ask:

1948 for instance (a rather key date) was 75 years ago. Anyone who had reached 18 in the lands of the Mandate is now 93+. Or dead. So many affected on all sides now are young, with parents and probably grandparents born after 1948. They have to deal with, flourish, suffer and so on in a reality that has evolved over decades. Solutions and mitigations must surely be based on now, taking account of but not completely ordained by the past.
Then there's what can we do? That's us as a group of people discussing or quietly following) who skew towards women, generally mothers in the UK, with some outside that group no doubt but exchanging views and information in what we think is good faith. Plus trolls and bad actors no doubt.

When something like this happens it is, in my mind, worth considering ones own ability to do things. I have in the past contributed to the ICRC appeal for Gaza (2021). I think that is a step beyond 'raising awareness'. So far as Ukraine goes I have kept in touch with relatives, sent them funds (none of them have left for Poland or further west), contributed to a Lithuanian drone, donated to United24 and a Polish Catholic charity, helped some refugees when in Ireland and delivered an in house briefing at my main workplace.

Are others taking part in these threads trying to help in practical ways?

Edited a redundant word.

Edited

I'm not sure why limiting study to history within living memory would make any sense. I'm Irish, and let's just say our nationalist movement remembered things that happened 800 years ago. And not because anyone involved was immortal!

I'm not interested in talk about solutions, I want to understand the cause of the situation. That should come first. I would be completely opposed to anyone trying to 'help' if they haven't understood the situation first. That would be incredibly irresponsible in my view.

Takoneko · 09/10/2023 19:40

IslaWinds · 09/10/2023 19:30

The Zionist movement didn’t affect Palestine/Israel until 1948.
That is when the conflict started.
No one had issue with Jewish immigrants moving to the region prior to this.

Show quote history

Not true. The Arab Uprising of 1936-39 was primarily about Jewish migration to Palestine and resulted in the British limiting Jewish migration to Palestine. Fatefully, the Second World War broke out shortly afterwards and so Jewish migration was restricted just as Nazi policy towards the Jews became significantly more violent and more and more Jews fell under their power as they invaded more and more of Europe.

ketchup07070 · 09/10/2023 19:40

@AhNowTed I think that's the dehumanisation talking - I mean the idea that starving a bunch of traumatised kids is a great idea!

IslaWinds · 09/10/2023 19:41

Takoneko · 09/10/2023 19:40

Not true. The Arab Uprising of 1936-39 was primarily about Jewish migration to Palestine and resulted in the British limiting Jewish migration to Palestine. Fatefully, the Second World War broke out shortly afterwards and so Jewish migration was restricted just as Nazi policy towards the Jews became significantly more violent and more and more Jews fell under their power as they invaded more and more of Europe.

Show quote history

Well, if you want to define the history of Israel as starting from before they even existed, that’s your prerogative.

Takoneko · 09/10/2023 19:42

Slowlylosingmymind101 · 09/10/2023 19:37

I think it'd amazing that Ukraine are allowed to fight back for their land and lives with bombs and fighting. But Palestine can't.

This was isn't about being against Jews or Israel. There are many Christians, Muslims and Jewish Palestinians living in Palestine side by side and very happy to do so. This wad is about taking what isn't yours. Treating the people of Palestine as animals. Israel have done horrific things to.women and children for years.

Km.not agreeing with hamas approach. But the Palestinions are well within their rights to fight back and should do so.

Those killed in israel where on illegally occupied land. They chose to be there. They chose to take this land from people. They chose to move in and create and live on a war zone.

That’s not true. These incursions include areas that were never meant to be part of any Palestinian state.

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 19:42

IslaWinds · 09/10/2023 19:32

The British and UN did no such thing.

Show quote history

I didn't mention the UN. Ok, you're saying Lemony is lying about that. Seems an odd thing to lie about because I presume it would be easy to check.

1dayatatime · 09/10/2023 19:42

@DuvetsAndDreams

"How much power do you think a starving and dehydrated mother and her kids has, for example? How should she remove Hamas?"

+++

Because the priorities of the civilian population will rapidly shift from celebrating the terrorist attacks to the more pressing concern of food and water.

Whilst the mother and her kids might not be able to remove Hamas from power , her husband, brother, family and wider community witnessing such starvation and dehydration will rapidly come to the conclusion that risking your life to remove Hamas from power is preferable to starvation and dehydration.

MisschiefMaker · 09/10/2023 19:43

quiteoldad · 09/10/2023 19:27

@ ISLA You know Hamas and their predecessors have tried peaceful means to negotiate change for decades and Israel squashes it every time.

Please guide me to where I find proof of this. I will modify my views if there is good evidence for this. The only negotiations I could find so far is for a hostage swap.

Well, what about the March of Return? They marched for over a year in 2018-2019 asking for refugees to be allowed home. In response, the Israelis killed hundreds of them and wounded thousands including children. I think 1 Israeli solider died.

Israel was investigated and condemned by all the usual suspects - the UN, Amnesty etc. But Israel answers to itself only.

Also, what about the West Bank? it is relatively peaceful and has been for years but Israel won't allow the people there the dignity of being citizens with human rights. I imagine Hamas looks at the West Bank and doesn't think that seems an appealing option.

DuvetsAndDreams · 09/10/2023 19:43

AhNowTed · 09/10/2023 19:37

"I am sure that a couple of weeks of no food and water will help focus minds and priorities amongst the Palestinians in Gaza and encourage them to remove Hamas from power, After all without food and water what have you got to lose?"

I don't resort to this language as a rule, but there is something wrong with you.

Only a sociopath would suggest starving women and children into submission, in the entirety futile hope they could overthrow a fanatical regime.

Words fucking fail me at the level of ignorance.

Show quote history

Quite. It’s one of the cruellest and most unpleasant and cold posts on here.

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 19:44

@Slowlylosingmymind101

There are many Christians, Muslims and Jewish Palestinians living in Palestine side by side and very happy to do so

No there aren't!

Treating the people of Palestine as animals. Israel have done horrific things to.womenand children for years

What do you think Hamas are doing to their own people?

Those killed in israel where on illegally occupied land

No they weren't.

Honestly, I hope you read this thread. Or a book.

MisschiefMaker · 09/10/2023 19:46

ketchup07070 · 09/10/2023 19:40

@AhNowTed I think that's the dehumanisation talking - I mean the idea that starving a bunch of traumatised kids is a great idea!

I wonder why people give into this bloodlust. The photos of Palestinians suffering are as heart wrenching as the ones of the Israelis at the desert rave. I sort of get it if you're an Israeli and identify more with other Israelis. But I don't understand it from other people at all.

Takoneko · 09/10/2023 19:47

IslaWinds · 09/10/2023 19:41

Well, if you want to define the history of Israel as starting from before they even existed, that’s your prerogative.

Show quote history

You didn’t say Israel.

You talked about Palestine/Israel and said nobody had a problem with Jews coming to the region before 1948. Obviously, I agree with you that the history of Israel doesn’t begin until 1948 but that wasn’t what we were talking about.

Poudretteite · 09/10/2023 19:47

DisquietintheRanks · 09/10/2023 18:44

The solution, when and if it comes, will be a fair and equitable two state solution. At the moment there's no appetite for that in Israel. Maybe one day.

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Has Hamas indicated an appetite for it? Because its manifesto calls for jihad and destruction of Israel

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 19:47

@IslaWinds

”the Arabs”? The British controlled Palestine then as a League of Nations mandate. There was no “Arab” decision made about visas

I didn't say they made visa decisions.

I said they were kicking off about it.

DuvetsAndDreams · 09/10/2023 19:49

1dayatatime · 09/10/2023 19:42

@DuvetsAndDreams

"How much power do you think a starving and dehydrated mother and her kids has, for example? How should she remove Hamas?"

+++

Because the priorities of the civilian population will rapidly shift from celebrating the terrorist attacks to the more pressing concern of food and water.

Whilst the mother and her kids might not be able to remove Hamas from power , her husband, brother, family and wider community witnessing such starvation and dehydration will rapidly come to the conclusion that risking your life to remove Hamas from power is preferable to starvation and dehydration.

’I am sure that a couple of weeks watching Israeli hostages be tortured and killed will help focus minds and priorities amongst the Israelis and encourage them to remove Netanyahu from power’.

Is an exceptionally unpleasant thing to write and not something I believe.