Page 4 | Natural birth

Weirdbigtoe · 2023-10-02T20:47:52+00:00

What is classed as a natural birth-is it vaginal birth with no pain relief at all? I had a vaginal birth, but requested epidural. My mum to this day still asks why, I can’t remember being massively informed at the time, but just basically not wanting any pain, is this weird? It seems incredulous to my mum. It wouldn’t have affected my Dd would it? Where I am they don’t have gas & air, the only option was epidural or not, hence why I went for it, if they had gas and air I would have had that

CurlewKate · 03/10/2023 11:48

@nokidshere "Giving birth is giving birth. It doesn't matter a jot how your baby gets here."

Except to some people it does.

Whiskerson · 03/10/2023 11:50

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 10:43

Babies aren't "born drugged" after an epidural!

I've had two epidurals, one which was topped up to the max so I could have an emergency C-section and one which pretty much wore off completely by the time I came to push.

Neither of my babies were "born drugged" and I breastfed both of them almost immediately.

Show quote history

Thank you! "Born drugged", not true at all - an epidural purely numbs your nerves, it's not a "drug" in the "off your head" sense and doesn't affect baby. That's one reason I preferred the idea. I also breastfed immediately, the epidural has nothing to do with this.

CurlewKate · 03/10/2023 12:08

I think the "born drugged" thing came about when the medical profession were free with pethidine-which can, if given at the wrong time, affect the baby. It made people very wary of any sort of medication in labour, however innocuous.

Mummy08m · 03/10/2023 12:09

Just coming back to this thread to say that the idea that breastfeeding is linked to a "natural" birth is just another stick to beat mums with.

I had about a bad a birth as I could imagine (but I'm sure many would have had as bad or worse) - I had my emergency c-section under GA after a failed syntocin induction, got sepsis, haemorrhaged, just about all the tick boxes of awfulness.

I still breastfed my dd until she was over 2.5yo, although it was mixed feeding initially.

I'm a big believer in the benefits of breastfeeding and "extended" breastfeeding beyond 2yo. In my view it's harmful to tell mums that breastfeeding is doomed if they've had an epidural or c-section. And tbh my NCT classes heavily implied this, that's why I wouldn't recommend NCT.

You've got pretty much no control over how your birth goes. You might think you do. But if shit hits the fan, you don't. There's no halfway-house between an emergency c-section due to fetal distress and "labour while walking".

What you do have (slightly) more control over is breastfeeding; you can work at it, get support, read advice, do halfway-house things like a bit of mixed feeding until you get breastfeeding established, etc etc. It's less urgent, risk of sudden death is less imminent.

So imo it's wrong to threaten mums with breastfeeding failure as a way to get them to avoid pain relief in childbirth.

thaegumathteth · 03/10/2023 12:12

It doesn't matter what it means or doesn't mean, that's the crux of it. It doesn't matter what your mum says or thinks. It was your birth and you did what you felt you should. No harm done to anyone. End of.

People say they've had no pain relief and that's fine, I didn't but I can tell you now one of my births was so so easy and another was like I was being tortured. They were completely incomparable. And actually, it doesn't matter anyways because even if the pain isn't that bad it's your prerogative to have pain relief.

Chickenkeev · 03/10/2023 12:16

Mummy08m · 03/10/2023 12:09

Just coming back to this thread to say that the idea that breastfeeding is linked to a "natural" birth is just another stick to beat mums with.

I had about a bad a birth as I could imagine (but I'm sure many would have had as bad or worse) - I had my emergency c-section under GA after a failed syntocin induction, got sepsis, haemorrhaged, just about all the tick boxes of awfulness.

I still breastfed my dd until she was over 2.5yo, although it was mixed feeding initially.

I'm a big believer in the benefits of breastfeeding and "extended" breastfeeding beyond 2yo. In my view it's harmful to tell mums that breastfeeding is doomed if they've had an epidural or c-section. And tbh my NCT classes heavily implied this, that's why I wouldn't recommend NCT.

You've got pretty much no control over how your birth goes. You might think you do. But if shit hits the fan, you don't. There's no halfway-house between an emergency c-section due to fetal distress and "labour while walking".

What you do have (slightly) more control over is breastfeeding; you can work at it, get support, read advice, do halfway-house things like a bit of mixed feeding until you get breastfeeding established, etc etc. It's less urgent, risk of sudden death is less imminent.

So imo it's wrong to threaten mums with breastfeeding failure as a way to get them to avoid pain relief in childbirth.

I 'failed' at bf too, dd 12 is hale and hearty. Not a bother on her. I tried for a month but just couldn't manage it. I was devastated at the time, it was a lovely thing to do. But the bottles were fine too. 'Fed, not dead' is the best thing i ever read on here tbh.

Original poster

Weirdbigtoe · 03/10/2023 12:19

@RedRobyn2021 Babies are born drugged 😧 I breastfed my Dd straightaway after being induced, opting for an epidural and having forceps and episiotomy, none of which would be my ideal scenario!

OP posts:

Switcher · 03/10/2023 12:24

Your mum seems a little uncharitable. If you're induced it's a completely different pain profile to going into labour naturally. Of course you have an epidural if you're induced, or is there some medal for top masochism she was hoping to award??

Imamumgetmeoutofhere · 03/10/2023 12:25

I'd take it to mean vaginal, through whichever way possible really.

But it doesn't matter how babies are delivered as long as mum and baby are safe nothing else matters does it.

It took me a long time to come to terms with my 2 emergency c sections. But the truth of the matter without the first one both me and DS would have died from eclampsia and with DD it was needed as she would have died too due to heart issues during labour 🤷‍♀️

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 12:30

Mummy08m · 03/10/2023 12:09

Just coming back to this thread to say that the idea that breastfeeding is linked to a "natural" birth is just another stick to beat mums with.

I had about a bad a birth as I could imagine (but I'm sure many would have had as bad or worse) - I had my emergency c-section under GA after a failed syntocin induction, got sepsis, haemorrhaged, just about all the tick boxes of awfulness.

I still breastfed my dd until she was over 2.5yo, although it was mixed feeding initially.

I'm a big believer in the benefits of breastfeeding and "extended" breastfeeding beyond 2yo. In my view it's harmful to tell mums that breastfeeding is doomed if they've had an epidural or c-section. And tbh my NCT classes heavily implied this, that's why I wouldn't recommend NCT.

You've got pretty much no control over how your birth goes. You might think you do. But if shit hits the fan, you don't. There's no halfway-house between an emergency c-section due to fetal distress and "labour while walking".

What you do have (slightly) more control over is breastfeeding; you can work at it, get support, read advice, do halfway-house things like a bit of mixed feeding until you get breastfeeding established, etc etc. It's less urgent, risk of sudden death is less imminent.

So imo it's wrong to threaten mums with breastfeeding failure as a way to get them to avoid pain relief in childbirth.

Yes, this is a real shame.

My son was born by emergency C-section after a failed induction and he was small for gestational age. I was put under so much pressure to formula feed so that he would gain weight. The rate of breastfeeding is lower where I live and most women only take 4 months' maternity leave and end up formula feeding at that point anyway even if they start off breastfeeding, so wanting to avoid formula and breastfeed exclusively is seen as a bit precious.

But I felt as though I had failed to get and stay pregnant without medical interventions, I'd failed to go into labour and give birth without medical interventions, and I just wanted ONE THING to work the way nature intended, so I was very determined about the breastfeeding. If I'd been any less determined I'd have given up.

As you say, this entirely false narrative that interventions during childbirth reduce your chance of successful breastfeeding almost makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy for many women. When their milk hasn't come in on day 4 they think, "It must be because of the C-section" and switch to formula.

SouthLondonMum22 · 03/10/2023 12:38

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 10:33

They also don't use gas and air for childbirth where I am because they think it's completely pointless when real pain relief is available, but I have had gas and air in A&E whilst having stitches and let me tell you, you are not missing anything at all.

I told them I wanted an epidural right away and was encouraged to try gas & air first, I declined and insisted on the epidural.

Straight to the good stuff, thankyouverymuch. 😂

clarebear111 · 03/10/2023 12:55

IkeandKyle · 02/10/2023 22:00

As a PP said, “natural” birth has no definition in medical terms. Normal vaginal delivery (NVD) is probably closest, but there’s been a ridiculous drive in the past decade towards a totally drug-free birth without pain relief. Believe me they don’t give out any medals for this and there’s no evidence it’s better for baby.

Agree with this.

It's such a personal decision. From what I've seen and read, there are risks with vaginal births which seem to have been downplayed a bit in recent years, due to a perception that there should be more vaginal births and fewer c-sections. The series of tragic and well publicised maternity unit scandals look to be at least in part the result of some sort of target led culture which strove to reduce the numbers of c-sections.

One of my DH's aunts had 4 vaginal births. She is still having surgery to try to stop her prolapsing, but there will be women out there who have had 4 vaginal births and aren't affected at all.

Vaginal births are great for some women, and c sections are great for others, and I don't think it's fair to say that one is better than or preferable to the other. In this day and age, it can be easy to forget that childbirth is actually a dangerous time for mother and baby, and we should look to support mothers and their babies when giving birth, however that looks.

IslaWinds · 03/10/2023 13:01

CurlewKate · 03/10/2023 04:05

@IslaWinds "Can be at home or in a hospital- although 99% of hospitals can’t not intervene in some way so very rare."
Really? Are only 1% of hospital births without intervention? Is that a genuine stat?

It’s not a genuine statistic, it is purely based on my experience. Hospitals usually have interventions like electronic fetal monitoring, vaginal exams to check dilation, breaking the waters, labour augmentation with pitocin, episiotomy, forceps/ventouse plus all the pain relief options and that is not even an induction.

IslaWinds · 03/10/2023 13:06

vaginal birth without epidural, which only crazy women have.
Comments like this illustrate the fact that women who have unmedicated, no intervention vaginal births are harshly judged by other women. Why the need to call any woman “crazy”?

MammaTo · 03/10/2023 13:06

happsy · 02/10/2023 22:16

Natural birth is just ANOTHER thing society holds over women's heads to make them feel bad if they didn't give birth alone in a field with nature.

Not society, women. It's always women who are the ones judging. Always.

It is always women!

Whenever I’ve spoken to dads they’re always of the opinion of why wouldn’t you take pain relief, it makes no sense to them. Where as women seem to have this embedded sense of needing to suffer in life.

WeWereInParis · 03/10/2023 13:08

Hospitals usually have interventions like electronic fetal monitoring, vaginal exams to check dilation, breaking the waters, labour augmentation with pitocin, episiotomy, forceps/ventouse plus all the pain relief options and that is not even an induction.

Are vaginal exam to check dilation interventions? I had those during my home birth. Surely they're just observations, rather than actively intervening in anything.
Not that it matters, I'm just interested because if you count them as interventions, of course the number of births with interventions will be high.

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 13:09

IslaWinds · 03/10/2023 13:06

vaginal birth without epidural, which only crazy women have.
Comments like this illustrate the fact that women who have unmedicated, no intervention vaginal births are harshly judged by other women. Why the need to call any woman “crazy”?

I'm just saying what the culture is where I live.

If you suggest that you might try and give birth without an epidural, people are just like, "Why?"

Gettingbysomehow · 03/10/2023 13:13

I can't stand all this "natural" childbirth stuff. I wouldn't dream of it. I insisted on having an epidural. My sister wanted a caesarean and had one - the result was two healthy babies.
A truly natural childbirth means no medical intervention at all even if mum and baby die.
Doesn't sound so great now does it.

IslaWinds · 03/10/2023 13:13

WeWereInParis · 03/10/2023 13:08

Hospitals usually have interventions like electronic fetal monitoring, vaginal exams to check dilation, breaking the waters, labour augmentation with pitocin, episiotomy, forceps/ventouse plus all the pain relief options and that is not even an induction.

Are vaginal exam to check dilation interventions? I had those during my home birth. Surely they're just observations, rather than actively intervening in anything.
Not that it matters, I'm just interested because if you count them as interventions, of course the number of births with interventions will be high.

I do count them as interventions because they are invasive and midwives will often surreptitiously do a bit of finger cervix stretching while in there.

tb4122 · 03/10/2023 13:15

CurlewKate · 03/10/2023 11:47

@MargotBamborough "and there's a vaginal birth without epidural, which only crazy women have."

And that attitude is exactly why I never tell anyone my birth story....

Also the reason I wont be sharing much about my birth when I go back to work. My colleague had a baby 6 months before me- epidural, episiotomy and ventouse. I saw her just before I went on maternity leave and her advice was "just get the epidural". I KNOW for a fact that if I mention I had some gas and air for the first stage then did the pushing unmedicated that she'll take it personally that I "think I was better at birth than she was" (because we've had this sort of thing before).

Nobody wants to hear that your birth was ok, you baby sleeps reasonably well or that you're enjoying no motherhood. And then we wonder why women are so frightened of it all....because nobody feels comfortable to share a good experience.

Perfect28 · 03/10/2023 13:15

I count natural birth as physiological birth. That is- labour begins spontaneously, no pain relief, baby delivered vaginally. After birth is managed without medication.

IslaWinds · 03/10/2023 13:16

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 13:09

I'm just saying what the culture is where I live.

If you suggest that you might try and give birth without an epidural, people are just like, "Why?"

Show quote history

Ok. That is the culture where I live as well. My DM had passed before I was pregnant with my first, but my MIL had a lot to say about how her grandbabies should be birthed. It wasn’t even worded as advice, but more like marching orders.😅

IslaWinds · 03/10/2023 13:17

Nobody wants to hear that your birth was ok, you baby sleeps reasonably well or that you're enjoying no motherhood. And then we wonder why women are so frightened of it all....because nobody feels comfortable to share a good experience.
This is a good point. It’s like if you lucked out with an easier birth you don’t have a right to speak up.

SouthLondonMum22 · 03/10/2023 13:22

IslaWinds · 03/10/2023 13:17

Nobody wants to hear that your birth was ok, you baby sleeps reasonably well or that you're enjoying no motherhood. And then we wonder why women are so frightened of it all....because nobody feels comfortable to share a good experience.
This is a good point. It’s like if you lucked out with an easier birth you don’t have a right to speak up.

It isn't always made out that it is luck though.

Some are convinced that they can control what happens during birth and do act superior that they were able to have an unmedicated birth.

pigsDOfly · 03/10/2023 13:23

happsy · 02/10/2023 22:16

Natural birth is just ANOTHER thing society holds over women's heads to make them feel bad if they didn't give birth alone in a field with nature.

Not society, women. It's always women who are the ones judging. Always.

The above is so true.

When I had my children who are now aged from mid thirties to early forties I don't remember anyone talking about 'natural' births.

I had no pain relief at all with the last two as they were born so quickly there wasn't even time for gas and air but in my head, I don't see their births as any different from the first for which I had an induction and forceps. All I know is that because of the speed of the second two they were a hell of a lot easier and joyful than the first.

Why do women feel the need to make judgements on other women in this way as if somehow giving birth without any intervention - whatever that involves - is somehow more 'real' and 'noble'. It isn't. Birth is birth and it's bloody hard however you do it.

Please ignore your mum's spiteful remarks OP.

You've given birth to your beautiful baby, how that happened is between you and your medical team and is bugger all to do with anyone else, least of all anyone who is going to make judgemental remarks and make you feel you didn't somehow do birth in the right way.