Natural birth

[Weirdbigtoe]

What is classed as a natural birth-is it vaginal birth with no pain relief at all?
I had a vaginal birth, but requested epidural. My mum to this day still asks why, I can’t remember being massively informed at the time, but just basically not wanting any pain, is this weird? It seems incredulous to my mum. It wouldn’t have affected my Dd would it?
Where I am they don’t have gas & air, the only option was epidural or not, hence why I went for it, if they had gas and air I would have had that

I don’t really know what ‘natural birth’ means. In order to have a natural birth, there has to be an antonym. What does an unnatural birth look like, exactly? All babies are born in the end so birth is just that, birth. Doesn’t really matter how much pain relief the Mum has or whether a surgeon delivers the baby via forceps or c-section.

None of which are relevant to birth outcomes.

Their healthcare system is completely different to ours and varies wildly from one state to the next, their maternal mortality rate is much higher than ours, they are much more litigious than we are, they have a for-profit healthcare system, they have no right to paid maternity leave meaning that women frequently schedule C-sections and inductions for the first day of their leave so as to maximise time spent with their babies, and in some cases they can get better reimbursed by their health insurance and/or claim more time off as disability leave if they have had a C-section.

Comparing the UK and the USA is like comparing chalk and cheese.

As you think “all [scientific] studies are unreliable” , I sense that this is an impossible ask with you. Especially since I’ve posted a couple studies already to illustrate that the evidence is mixed/uncertain.

It’s laughable really that you think all scientific studies are unreliable when they have done far more objective investigation into epidurals than your simplistic oh, I’ll compare % of epidurals and % of C-sections between only the U.K. and France and then speculate on why there are differences.

If you think that about the US and Australia (that was the other study), then surely you would think the same about France? Chalk and cheese.

I'm saying, "Do you have a study showing a clear link, rather than one showing mixed/uncertain results? If not, and no one has any such study, why are we telling women there is a link?"

Not really, the UK and France are very similar countries in a lot of ways. The healthcare systems are structured quite differently, but overall you are looking at two wealthy Western European countries with very similar populations, where women have a reasonable maternity leave allowance, maternity care in public hospitals is free and overall outcomes including key indicators such as maternal mortality rates are very similar.

I don't know much about Australia but a quick look at the most recent data suggests they have a huge ELCS rate.

Oh my, you didn’t even read my post much less the links to the studies!
One study showed a clear link, and another study showed no link. Ergo the scientific results are mixed. The individual studies are not “mixed.”

It is a pity you’ve gone on record several times stating that we cannot use any scientific studies from the USA as that is where the most recent studies show no link between epidurals and C-sections.

Why is that a pity?

There's no point in cherry picking the USA to make the point you want to make when it's not a comparable country in any way.

I don't know enough about Australia to comment on what might be going on there.

I'm telling you what I know, which is that in the country where I live, where the majority of women have an epidural regardless of what kind of labour they are having, there doesn't appear to be a link.

So, in the US the fact that epidurals are not linked to increased C-sections, is because they are so very different from us that we cannot use that data(per you), then it is quite possible that epidurals in the U.K. are linked to increased C-sections?

What is the basis for your excluding vs including countries other than maternity leave and in what way is paid maternity leave and influence on opting for an epidural or not? Or on csection rates or not?

So how is France so alike to the U.K. moreso than USA and Australia such that you are convinced that epidurals in the U.K. are not linked to csection rates at all?

Do you even have a French study showing no link?

Why would epidurals lead to C-sections in the UK specifically? Epidurals in the UK are not, to my knowledge, different to epidurals in other countries, and the UK would be an odd country to use if you are trying to prove a link given the low rate of epidural use.

I'm getting bored of going round in circles with you now. Not sure what your motivation here is. It seems to me quite obvious that if epidurals increase the risk of C-sections and other interventions then you would expect to see more C-sections and other interventions following trial of labour under epidural in countries where epidurals are given routinely, and which cannot be explained by other factors. If you disagree, fine, whatever.

You still have yet to provide any credible data to support this supposed link though. And given that women in the UK are absolutely discouraged from having epidurals due to these supposed risks, surely you agree that the lack of any clear data which women can use to assess those risks for themselves is a problem.

I only looked at the statistics, which were pretty detailed. Did you click on my links?

In France you have almost the opposite problem, which is that fewer than 15% of women have a vaginal birth without epidural. Whilst I would still expect that group to be largely made up of women having uncomplicated births, it means you don't have a large control group of women not having epidurals against which to compare your epidural group.

Given that France doesn't have a particularly high rate of C-sections and other interventions despite the high epidural rate, I doubt such a study would be considered a priority for research.

In the UK, you don't have a big enough control group of women having epidurals for no reason other than that they want one. As @SouthLondonMum22 experienced, women having straightforward labours in the UK who ask for an epidural in early labour are routinely encouraged to do without, and some are denied altogether despite asking repeatedly.

I’m sorry but have you actually given birth @MargotBamborough ?

Yes, twice. What makes you think I haven't?

@MargotBamborough "Would that change your views on whether women who decline pain relief in childbirth are crazy or not?"

I don't know. I hope it wouldn't cause me to think that any group of women making a legitimate choice was "crazy". And I certainly hope I wouldn't extrapolate that to take in all women who make that choice. I wouldn't say they were martyrs or competitive either. Or suggest that they were putting their babies at risk.

In reality I suspect that, like most people, your views would be very much influenced by the culture you were living in.

I've been the woman everyone thought was crazy. I've been the British woman in France saying I wanted to try and avoid an epidural because it increased the risk of other interventions, and had everyone frown at me and say, "Eh? No it doesn't."

I've been the woman talking to her doctor about her worries about epidurals and quoting information from the NHS, only to have the doctor say, "Well the choice is yours, but there isn't any real evidence to suggest that epidurals carry these risks. I understand that the culture is very different in the UK and we will do our very best to accommodate you giving birth the way you want to, but my colleague in the next room worked at St Thomas's Hospital in London for several years and he thinks the way they make women give birth in the UK is barbaric."

@MargotBamborough "he thinks the way they make women give birth in the UK is barbaric"

Once again. Women are allowed to make choices. At no point on this thread have you accepted that wanting an unmedicated birth is a valid choice and the right choice for some women. You have abused them, suggested they are uninformed, gullible and ignorant and putting their babies at risk.

I completely agree and it’s very patronising.

OK, please stop claiming that I have said things I haven't. Unless you can quote me saying those specific things, particularly the part about putting babies at risk, you ought to retract that comment.

I am saying that women should make informed choices based on good data, which is not what appears to be happening in the UK or indeed on this thread, where one poster claimed that epidurals result in babies being "born drugged".

If the NHS were providing women with actual facts, presented in a neutral manner, nobody would believe such nonsense.

And I have said several times that having an unmedicated birth may well be the right choice for some women, for example, women who want a home birth. There are many extremely valid reasons for wanting a home birth, but one thing to take into consideration is that you won't be able to have an epidural. That is an example of an informed decision.

Choosing an unmedicated birth because you believe it will lead to other interventions or to your baby being "born drugged" is not an informed decision.

In fact, the only example I have actually seen on this thread of a poster suggesting that someone else's birth choices might harm their baby is the person who claimed that babies are "born drugged". Seriously. The fake news has to stop.

The doctor who thinks the way women give birth in the UK is "barbaric" is talking from a position of having delivered thousands of babies in both the UK and France. As such, his opinion on the matter is relevant and I have to admit it gave me pause for thought.

You aren't patronising at all. You've made some excellent points and it's certainly interesting to hear what the Dr says about how women are dealt with during labour here.

I'm due in April and not looking forward to having to justify wanting an epidural as soon as possible again. Hopefully it won't be as bad this time because it isn't my first.

@SouthLondonMum22 "I'm due in April and not looking forward to having to justify wanting an epidural as soon as possible again. Hopefully it won't be as bad this time because it isn't my first."

Grandmother and eggs here-but make sure it's all over your notes- and that you get to hospital in plenty of time, and tell everyone you see. The staffing situation is so dire that you may have to wait.

Last time, the only reason why I was left waiting is because they spent time trying to convince me to try and see if I could 'manage' on gas & air first, not to mention offering me useless paracetamol.

Once they finally stopped trying to convince me, it wasn't much of a wait thankfully so hopefully it will be the same this time but less trying to get me to avoid it.

I will write all over my notes that I'm not interested in gas & air or paracetamol, just an epidural ASAP. Thanks for that tip.

@SouthLondonMum22 Ironically, with my second,I had to tell the staff that if I wanted pain relief I'd ask for it-please stop offering it!

We clearly need to swap hospitals. 😂