To leave my job/grievance with HR

[StrongTea22]

For context, pre kids I had a similar situation with a manager within the same wider organisation.

I’ve triggered an absence trigger at work (4 times in 1 year) half of it unfortunately Covid. Front facing public role, career grade and professional standards in place.

my manager is a bully. I’ve managed to manage becoming a target but I think it’s taken me this long to develop some assertiveness skills which she hasn’t taken to well.

basically she has been negligent in some of the processes and logging of Absence and policy which I have objected to and we had a meeting with HR a few weeks ago.

The meeting was hard and they began by asking about my well being. I said I was well but wanted advice on mitigating covid within the organisation and what steps were in place to support staff with the public.

this was discussed and then I got to ask about some of the areas I objected to and received two apologies. I had to be massively assertive which I don’t find easy.

THe HR rep was very combatant and when id received my second apology and was wiped out being assertive I was asked again about my well being.

my response was …are we goi g to talk about that now? I thought we’d talked about that?

They both got very insistent saying that was the purpose of the meeting but I felt I’d already been asked and answered appropriately.

I wasn’t refusing to answer, I wasn’t rude, insulting, defiant and I did not break any code of conduct or professional standards only for the HR woman to basically say something like ‘you’re talking to your manager and I suggest you watch your tone’

Now this completely knocked the wind out of my sails for a second as that is not how I was acting (and I checked with a colleague in attendance who would have told me).

I think my manager struggles being challenged and this meeting was very much ‘get back in your box’ and that the HR lady had been waiting for an opportunity to give me this sort of warning at my managers behest.

AIBU to be outraged about the HR person? Tone policed for…I aren’t sure what, reflecting out loud?

we had a break afterwards and I am at the stage now where I don't think it will be good for me to continue working there.

How do I manage this going forward? I can ask to reduce my hours but it’s unlikely to be agreed as they can’t recruit.

Any insight to role of HR welcomed.

Well either both don't like you and are in a mission to make your life difficult, or you do come across rude without meaning to and lack awareness.

I have to say my first reaction reading your response, without obviously hearing how it was said, was that I could see how it could have come out rude.

It's not always easy to find the right tone between assertiveness and rudeness.

It's not inappropriate for the HR person to police your tone, if it was unprofessional. Whether you were rude or not, no one can say just from your one sided description. It's easy to come across as rude when you aren't used to being assertive.

HR are there to protect the company not you.

Ring ACAS for advice on going forward.

The more knowledge you have the better.

The meeting was hard and they began by asking about my well being. I said I was well but wanted advice on mitigating covid within the organisation and what steps were in place to support staff with the public.

You didn’t discuss your well being though, you said you were fine and changed the subject. It’s reasonable, at a meeting about workplace absence, to discuss your wellbeing.

I think when someone finds it difficult to be assertive it’s easy to misjudge tone which can sounds more aggressive or confrontational than intended. If you think the HR person had been asked to address your tone by your manager it suggests there have been other times your time has been perceived as being “off”. Maybe take some time to reflect on what you’re bringing to the difficulties with your manager as well as where they’re at fault?

"my response was …are we goi g to talk about that now? I thought we’d talked about that?"

Could be seen as combative. I've had sickness meetings with management/HR. In our organisation it's very much about supporting the staff member and anything the organisation can do to help that. These meetings are absolutely all about wellbeing. So being told "we're done with that" by the person they're trying to help is a slap in the face.

I’m very self aware. Honestly, my first reaction is to blame myself and I have struggled with been a people pleaser and as an actual adult now I know this is NOT the case in this scenario.

I’ve been assertive. That’s it.

Yeah I don’t think that was the case to be honest. It was said gently and in all honestly IF these meetings are to support people in an already difficult situation with a manager why would you add to that.

I wasn’t being combative but can see why you mean here, almost saying let’s not bother.

This.

This is exactly it. I have challenged my manager yes…and please remember she us had to apologise (privately) twice already within this meeting.

perhaps instead of me assuming I’m at fault (how can I not as a people pleaser OF COURSE it’s me) we can look at the power dynamic within this and consider the abuse of power that bullying managers get to get away with especially with HR in tow.

No job, unless it’s the army requires complete compliance and deference. Managers should be held accountable. I was professional, calm and considered in my response. I am a professional and I expect to be treated as a competent adult when discussing things relating to my absence management when it’s been done incorrectly. Not been told to watch my tone.

Would it have been better to not have pulled her up on it and avoided been seen as assertive for daring to challenge her authority and the inaccuracies made?

My first reaction was to ask if I’d deserved the response and my colleagues response was a very firm NO. So even if I don’t believe it myself…I believe her.

So how do you all manage being assertive without being seen as combative, rude and arrogant, unprofessional?

Is it just being a woman? 😬

This - HR woman to basically say something like ‘you’re talking to your manager and I suggest you watch your tone’ - is IMO not appropriate. Respectful communication is for everyone we work with, not just our managers and those senior to us. 'Watching your tone' is incredibly subjective - and comes across as a way to shut someone up. If the HR person wanted to raise an issue with your response, then they should be identifying what, exactly, you had said or done that was felt inappropriate. e.g. maybe they should/could have reflected back that you had had a brief discussion about covid mitigation but hadn't discussed your wellbeing in a more general sense. Or acknowledged that these meetings can be difficult and emotional, and our responses might not come across as they seem....etc.

Also, if they were asking you about your wellbeing, surely a consideration should have been given to the fact you might not want to discuss that in front of your manager?

Anyway, your question was about whether you should carry on working for the company. Can you move within the company to be away from current manager? Could you request another HR meeting (with the colleague who observed) to highlight this issue?

If you can get a job elsewhere though, and this one is making you miserable, then maybe it is worth moving. The people you work with is the main thing that makes day to day job life ok or not (IMO).

These posts are always interesting to me as my first thought was, would a man have been asked to watch his tone?

I agree, the 'watch your tone' is poor HR unprofessionalism, rather than identifying exactly what you said that HR considered inappropriate.

@desikated yes to all of that.

She could have done it differently, it was a very distinct, direct threat and if i’d have not just been through the mill been assertive for an extended period I would have been able to at least address it formally with her.

At best, it made me feel awful, job done. At worst this could have easily ignited an already precarious relationship and id have looked like the instigator, irritant and be treated as such.

I think I’ve made my mind up to leave. I’ve spent a long time nurturing my self worth, resilience and working here or in another area (too small) is just not conducive to me feeling mentally well or switched off when I’m not there.

Its a well known thing that she generally speaks to staff in a disrespectful manner, when I mentioned it to an ex colleague she said it was a surprise to her that they’d not had a grievance as she’s known for it. Bad culture and unless I challenge her outwardly with a grievance, I’m just seen as a problematic member of staff who she’s handling. Rather than her managers noticing she cannot keep staff.

Do you have a union rep?

This sounds a bit shit and I would probably start looking for a new job.

@Oblomov23 yes exactly. I didn’t know what she meant really. I checked the code of conduct and I am satisfied that I have not breached any standards or expectations other than advocating for my position and feelings on the matter calmy within the meeting.

How much I divulge or feel comfortable discussing my well being (when half my instances were Covid).

I’m not sure what else they were expecting me to say. Given that she’s had to apologise to me I’m not really then going to go on and say that her incompetence has affected my well being am I?

Yep sat at the side of me.

Said she’d never seen anything like it and that she clearly was there with an agenda. But did clarify that I absolutely had done nothing to deserve the tone policing…and she would have said and I would accepted and trusted her saying so.

The fact that she didn’t tells me a lot.

I can put my notice in tomorrow and be done with it and walk into other employment, it’s just the career aspect really of me leaving a trained professional position I worked my arse off for.

I hate letting the bad guys win, which is ironically why got me here in the first place. Integrity.

I know. Ridiculous isn’t it, the answer is no isn’t it.

I hate HATE that there are always people who sound like your boss around in the workplace. Everyone knows they are - essentially - a bully. They don't bully everyone (that wouldn't work) so they target people. No-one feels they can say anything because they are usually in positions of some power. It's an open secret. Organisations do nothing to hold them to account because they treat individual instances, not seeing patterns.

I don't know what your profession is or whether it is too niche to be transferable, but a career coach/life coach might be helpful in thinking through next steps. If you leave, you haven't let them win - what you have actually done is put yourself first (and hopefully write an eviscerating 'I quit' letter)

I work in HR

Our role is varied but a large part of it is protecting the organisation.

This can be by ensuring policies are legally compliant and enacted fairly, training managers on employment law and best practice and ensuring persistent or long term sickness does not adversely impact the company whilst ensuring employees are supported to return to work and adjustments are in place where appropriate.

I might say to an employee that their tone was unprofessional during a meeting of it was. What exactly did the HR person say? “Watch your tone” would be quite inappropriate but something like “I appreciate this is a difficult meeting for you but please remember to keep your tone professional” might be ok if warranted

@desikated yes it’s exactly that. An open secret. It’s just currently my turn!

Im going to send off some job applications this week. My main concern is the reference but as professionally there is no issue with my work (just my sass apparently) there should be no real concern.

The best of this is that they will be up the creek. They cannot recruit and they cannot cover my work currently…so will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Thanks for not assuming I’m at fault, it’s all too easy to blame the employee and not look to critique managers that are seemingly above finding fault, reproach or having areas to develop.

If nothing else, I now how not to manage people.

@catgirl1976

I know and understand they are there for the company and not there for me. It was fairly easy to see they thought they were looking at Managerial Negligence and trying to advert that.

I can’t remember how she started saying it but something like ‘that’s your manager you are speaking to and I suggest you watch your tone.’

Well if your manager is a bully and the HE person isn’t doing anything about it they are not doing their job. That said I wouldn’t address something like that with a manager in front of the employee so maybe they are dealing with that aspect behind the scenes.

Life is too short to work for a shit manager though - get another job - there’s so many about at the moment you shouldn’t have any issue and good luck.

@catgirl1976 and yes that would have been fine phrased like that it would have allowed me to catch my breath, refocus, but it was a threat and honestly I think the HR woman was wildly out of control at this point.

Watch your tone-we can sack you.
Watch your tone-she’s the boss.
Watch your tone-you cannot answer back.

My husband said to take it as a compliment because they view me as a threat 🤣

I sat in on an HR meeting last week about absence in a school where I support a new Head. The member of staff was very assertive- no problem with that- but he stepped into rudeness because he did not want to discuss his absence just the fact that previously the last Head did not follow the policy. He thought that meant he could start again from scratch and his absences did not count (not the case) and said quite belligerently 'I don't need to answer this and I'm not going to. The school policy was not followed.'

The HR advisor did exactly what you said and pulled him up on it. He was most upset at this but his union rep actually stepped in and apologised and calmed it down. Afterwards ('off the record') the union rep asked if I thought the member of staff had adopted an unprofessional tone, I said I did. He agreed and said he was going to speak to him about how absence management works.

If you have been absent, you've been absent and the organisation has a right to pursue that and discuss it with you. They may have to step down the absence procedure to an earlier stage if they have not followed it but have a right to discuss absence and well-being with you. I'd expect that in any large organisation or one with an HR dept/advisor.

@LuluBlakey1

I do expect to be held subject to policies and have no problem with that. I understand and agree the need for absence to be managed within any work place appropriately.

However, I also have an expectation, as an employee, for managers to be appropriately trained and refer to those policies if I am being held accountable to them and subject to formal disciplinary procedures as a result. I should also be able to expect clear transparent communication about outcomes, next steps and deadlines.

I do expect to have recognised when my manager does not follow the policies, she acknowledged this and apologised so I accepted that with grace.

I also find the management culture in schools to be particularly toxic in relation to Heads and staffing problematic but that is another thread entirely.

I didn’t refuse to answer, I was literally saying I don’t know where I’ll find the words/energy after that (that being me asserting my point of view and my manager apologising).