To leave my job/grievance with HR

[StrongTea22]

For context, pre kids I had a similar situation with a manager within the same wider organisation.

I’ve triggered an absence trigger at work (4 times in 1 year) half of it unfortunately Covid. Front facing public role, career grade and professional standards in place.

my manager is a bully. I’ve managed to manage becoming a target but I think it’s taken me this long to develop some assertiveness skills which she hasn’t taken to well.

basically she has been negligent in some of the processes and logging of Absence and policy which I have objected to and we had a meeting with HR a few weeks ago.

The meeting was hard and they began by asking about my well being. I said I was well but wanted advice on mitigating covid within the organisation and what steps were in place to support staff with the public.

this was discussed and then I got to ask about some of the areas I objected to and received two apologies. I had to be massively assertive which I don’t find easy.

THe HR rep was very combatant and when id received my second apology and was wiped out being assertive I was asked again about my well being.

my response was …are we goi g to talk about that now? I thought we’d talked about that?

They both got very insistent saying that was the purpose of the meeting but I felt I’d already been asked and answered appropriately.

I wasn’t refusing to answer, I wasn’t rude, insulting, defiant and I did not break any code of conduct or professional standards only for the HR woman to basically say something like ‘you’re talking to your manager and I suggest you watch your tone’

Now this completely knocked the wind out of my sails for a second as that is not how I was acting (and I checked with a colleague in attendance who would have told me).

I think my manager struggles being challenged and this meeting was very much ‘get back in your box’ and that the HR lady had been waiting for an opportunity to give me this sort of warning at my managers behest.

AIBU to be outraged about the HR person? Tone policed for…I aren’t sure what, reflecting out loud?

we had a break afterwards and I am at the stage now where I don't think it will be good for me to continue working there.

How do I manage this going forward? I can ask to reduce my hours but it’s unlikely to be agreed as they can’t recruit.

Any insight to role of HR welcomed.

It’s her job to act in your interests though, knowing it was going to be a tricky meeting. In the scale of what can happen at these meetings, being asked to watch your tone isn’t particularly extreme - I’d want my union rep to take in their stride in terms of their representation of me. I’d particularly want her to challenge anything that could go on a record of meeting about me.

Did your union rep not ask for clarity when the meeting resumed or check how that part of the meeting would be recorded or record her/your view that your tone was appropriate?

All excellent questions!

Two actions that I noted from HR and the review date end would be confirmed then.

Laughably my manager introduced this formal meeting with HR in attendance as being very ‘informal’ at the beginning of it. Honestly.

No adjustments offered, none that I could think to ask for either. I can obviously open the windows and ask service users to avoid coming in if they are ill. That’s it and hand gel, not much to be done.

The other illnesses were a nasty virus/flu and an episode of dizziness which I think is connected to a change in my eye prescription but don’t know.

I don’t know what you mean by ‘intended trigger point warning’ I was warned when I reached my third instance earlier in the year, that one mire instance would trigger absence monitoring, so was fully aware and obviously couldn’t do anything about getting Covid and wasn’t well enough to work.

My last trigger absence was in April.

For clarity, these were 4 instances of 1 day absences…I work 1 very long shift a week.

Because of various commitments on my managers part and one on mine, we didn’t meet for the 1st stage trigger meeting until July.

In answer to if they are formally addressing my tone, I think not. I think she overreacted but I will find out when the letter comes.

The errors in the process have been apologised for, that’s it. Not acknowledged in writing of course.

That’s all I get. Whether I’ve been notified of the process appropriately or not, the process is still happening and I am subject to it apparently.

OP, you have been quite defensive and argumentative on the thread.

Can you tell us how many days of absence you have had and how many instances of absence in the last 12 months please? Also what's your length of service and are you full-time?

No I’m sure they can get far more heated. It’s more that it was unwarranted really.

I’ll be honest I think she could have done a better job of challenging it generally but I did hold my own.

We could have done a better job of clarifying when the meeting resumed of what she meant in terms of the tone. I don’t think it will be addressed formally.

At that juncture that it served no purpose other than to add fuel to their fire and I wanted to get out of there with my dignity intact and without tears which I managed.

We all took notes but not minutes, nothing was discussed as to how it would be recorded. My experience of this thus far is that the manager records only what is appropriate.

For instance there have been three review dates given. January, November then finally (once I quoted the policy) October. Butt none of the letters supersede the other or address the date change or make any apology for it changing or give any context to it in terms of policy. So they are just doi by what they think they can get away with.

It’s been quite the week for it 🤣

I’ll take that on the chin and agree though.

4 days, 4 instances, nearly 3 years.

That’s interesting about GMB, good to hear good things.

I am in a union yes, definitely worth having that support 👍🏻

OP please don't leave unless you have a better offer to go to. Maybe you can get a transfer to a different team or get a job with a different local government organisation that will preserve your length of service. It's good your union rep was there. Keep notes on everything that you can remember and ask your rep to corroborate them.
Re: covid mitigations, here are some ideas that your employer could put in place:

• monitoring Co2 in your workplace
• providing HEPA filtration
• providing FFP2 masks
• providing free tests for staff and asking them not to come into work whilst positive, and encouraging staff with cold symptoms to wear a mask
• you could ask your employer to sign the covid pledge The Covid-19 Safety Pledge (covidpledge.uk)
• ask for admin time to be done from home if possible/practical with your job
• whole team meetings/training to have hybrid/virtual options

And hear are some that you could do personally:

• buy a portable HEPA filter for your desk (eg QT3 by Smart Air)
• start using FFP2 masks when indoors
• buy an antiviral nasal spray and use every 4 hours when you are out of the house: eg viralize, norizite, Boots Dual Defence
• use a CPC mouthwash before and after work Efficacy of Cetylpyridinium Chloride mouthwash against SARS‐CoV‐2: A systematic review of randomized controlled trials - D'Amico - 2023 - Molecular Oral Microbiology - Wiley Online Library

Wishing you lots of luck

4 days =4x1 day instances to clarify. I was obviously unwell for longer than that but this was the only impact upon my workplace.

If your union rep didn't call HR out on the statement you have taken offence at then you need a new rep. Reps are there to stick up for you and ensure the policy is fair and applied properly. They shouldn't be shocked by any comment and should happily call stuff like this out.

Also.. I would say the majority of HR would not blindly accept what a manager tells them but would go on the facts as they find them.

Thank so much for this. My rep did have some of these (pages of notes about UKHSA guidance) and the HR just dismissed it…said she’d check WHO I think.

I do obviously have some anxiety about being off and ill again especially as some of the policies and procedure have been mishandled and I have been powerless to really have my objections listened to with any effect or acknowledged until now.

It’s just a toxic work place.

If I seem argumentative and defensive it’s because I’ve had to argue with my boss to be have my legitimate concerns taken seriously IRL and defensive because they weren’t dealt with seriously or effectively.

4 absences of 1 day is the first trigger point if the Bradford Factor is being used. 4 x 4 squared is 64 Sounds like a storm in a tea cup. Reduce your absences and your Bradford Factor score will reduce. You ought to be set a target to reduce your score. Once one of the absences falls away it will be 3 x 3 squared: 27, then 2 x 2 squared: 16.

Paradoxically the Bradford Factor weights frequent, short term absences more highly than say and operation resulting in four weeks off. It's the short term absences that often prove hard to cover. It's a bugger for anyone with endometriosis for example. In which case HR should step in and seek advice from OH.

Get HR on your side, act a bit vulnerable and stop picking at policy.

Covid isn't going anywhere but one episode of covid, if you arenoff for five days won't ratchet up your Bradford Factor.

I wouldn’t be letting a member of my team waste their time by meeting with you and your manager over this. Chat with manager, "you've hit a trigger" "what can we do to support you to bring it down?". Follow up in writing with a reasonable period for improvement.

There's something else going on here.

Yes, it was weak in that side of things definitely. She was focussed on the Covid…I was focussed on the policy and lack of transparency.

HR lady was silent when I discussed the policy issues, nothing, so I know they were in the wrong. I got an apology, that’s all.

She wasn’t there to offer any objective view on the facts of what my manager had or hadn’t done policy wise.

Behind closed doors I am sure she will have objectively told her what she should and shouldn’t have done…but I will not get that acknowledgement. It was a sickness absence review not an investigation into policy or managerial negligence.

It's not you, OP it's them.
As for all the wonks on here banging on about "unprofessional" tone - that's highly subjective so like you, I wouldn't take kindly to being lectured about it as it really isn't easy to judge or obvious.

Yes the Bradford factor is being used I believe.

I think my first absence will fall away in November. If it had been 3 weeks later it wouldn’t have triggered at all.

It is a storm in a tea-cup because I’m having formal meetings with outcomes agreed…then being given formal outcomes (review meetings) that I have not agreed to or had discussed with me at the appropriate juncture (trigger meeting) as per the policy.

Add into the mix a manager that doesn’t like being challenged and isn’t strong on HR policies and procedures, it’s a total mess.

I don’t wish to be defensive but please don’t insinuate there is something else at play here with regards to my absence. There really isn’t in terms of what I’ve stated to here on my part. I’ve had 3 viruses (2 Covid 1 flu) and dizziness in a year. Just unfortunate.

I believe I am being subjected to this extended review management in the first instance because they are worried there might be a grievance. Secondly, because my manager wants me back in my box, and lastly, because they can. It’s included in the policy as a potential outcome so they are making me sweat for it.

Re reading again I really do think your anger is misplaced. You talk about how hard it was for you to be assertive. Again, that's the union reps job. Speak to them beforehand, when they can see you flagging they should jump in and take over. It would get the point across and act as a barrier between you and your manager.

You come across very defensively on here.. Perhaps you did the same in the meeting. But these meetings are emotional and hard, particularly if the manager is a pain, so people often get angry and upset.

I'm a firm believer in unions. Make sure you get your moneys worth from a decent rep who will support you.

It does sound toxic :-( But also I think employers need to do much better to protect staff from repeated covid infections, It's not right to put pressure on staff because they are getting infected during a pandemic. I am worried about this also. I hope things work out ok for you.

slightly off topic, but I really don't think the OP has been defensive or argumentative. Especially given c.50% of people on this thread seem to think they are in the wrong, and so, understandably, that might be a bit annoying.

Back on topic OP - you work 1 day a week? and that day is really really long?
I get why absence policies are there. I get some people need more support and that is a good way of identifying them. I also get that someone being constantly off sick is difficult for the employer etc etc.

But also, it makes me rage a bit. You had covid twice, a virus and another illness. What did they want you to do at the first trigger point? Just come in and vomit up all over the place when you were ill? Stay totally socially isolated, and away from your children so you didn't get ill? utter madness.

Also, none of these illnesses requires specific wellbeing / health support, as in they are all discrete illnesses. (I have a chronic health problem - so in this instance yup i can see why my employer might want to know what they can do).

This is the third meeting I have had regarding my absences since April. So when I am talking about how hard I find it, it’s been hard for me every time.

It’s really hard when someone is in charge, your superior and you are calling them out on it, they do not appreciate it or thank you for it. I’m the ah for daring to raise it.

In terms of 360 feedback this thread is really proving interesting.

I am not ashamed of being defensive when I have something to defend.

Going forward it might be better for me to go in and go home from work on that basis.

Yes 1 long day. I cant say too much as it will be outing.

Yes all discrete instances so nothing interlinking that can be reviewed or discussed further at these review meetings, assuming I don’t hit more triggers.

No deadlines have been given to work to, unless the review meeting is one itself as a mid point, but think that would roughly be when one of my absences sheds which will be November.

I totally appreciate that, and that's why your rep should be on your side. It shouldn't all be on you. Its about you but they are there to support you. Lean on them.

Thank you, I know🙏🏻

It’s good to get other peoples views and advice but sometimes I have forum regret 🤣

She was, I think Covid is obviously a bit of a topic for Unions at the moment and rightfully so. I would have appreciated some more detail on the policy aspect and what the repercussions are for me as a result of policy not being followed.

I’ll have to see what the letter says this week and then get a plan I think for the next meeting.

I’ve spoken to ACAS and they confirmed my thoughts on what had transpired and basically said grievance route.

They’ve been trying to recruit all year. Hasn’t happened, what they will do though is make other people cover it, which will cause organisational angst due to role distinctions.

We’ve been through two replacements who have left and one who won’t work for her anymore. It’s going to be interesting!

I might try retain some hours and length of service, we’ll see.

This won’t happen and would beyond the scope of the union rep. I can start looking and applying.

@RosesAndHellebores no not full time.

Annualised hours and one long day.