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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To leave my job/grievance with HR

108 replies

StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 10:32

For context, pre kids I had a similar situation with a manager within the same wider organisation.

I’ve triggered an absence trigger at work (4 times in 1 year) half of it unfortunately Covid. Front facing public role, career grade and professional standards in place.

my manager is a bully. I’ve managed to manage becoming a target but I think it’s taken me this long to develop some assertiveness skills which she hasn’t taken to well.

basically she has been negligent in some of the processes and logging of Absence and policy which I have objected to and we had a meeting with HR a few weeks ago.

The meeting was hard and they began by asking about my well being. I said I was well but wanted advice on mitigating covid within the organisation and what steps were in place to support staff with the public.

this was discussed and then I got to ask about some of the areas I objected to and received two apologies. I had to be massively assertive which I don’t find easy.

THe HR rep was very combatant and when id received my second apology and was wiped out being assertive I was asked again about my well being.

my response was …are we goi g to talk about that now? I thought we’d talked about that?

They both got very insistent saying that was the purpose of the meeting but I felt I’d already been asked and answered appropriately.

I wasn’t refusing to answer, I wasn’t rude, insulting, defiant and I did not break any code of conduct or professional standards only for the HR woman to basically say something like ‘you’re talking to your manager and I suggest you watch your tone’

Now this completely knocked the wind out of my sails for a second as that is not how I was acting (and I checked with a colleague in attendance who would have told me).

I think my manager struggles being challenged and this meeting was very much ‘get back in your box’ and that the HR lady had been waiting for an opportunity to give me this sort of warning at my managers behest.

AIBU to be outraged about the HR person? Tone policed for…I aren’t sure what, reflecting out loud?

we had a break afterwards and I am at the stage now where I don't think it will be good for me to continue working there.

How do I manage this going forward? I can ask to reduce my hours but it’s unlikely to be agreed as they can’t recruit.

Any insight to role of HR welcomed.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 17:55

Also@LuluBlakey1 I have a good understanding of the policy.

Having worked in schools I can see this scenario you mention happening easily.

Mine is local government and I was literally quoting their own policy and guidance back at them as not been adhered to.

I did not ‘step into rudeness’ by doing this. It’s reasonable to refer to the document you are being held accountable to, in my case at least, perhaps not if you don’t actually understand the absence management policy in your colleagues case.

OP posts:
Rainbowraisin · 01/10/2023 18:01

Are you in a union? If not join. Find out how long it will be before they are willing to support you. Having sat on the other side of the table a few times, I've found GMB reps to be really feisty, if I was joining a union now I'd definitely consider that one!

LuluBlakey1 · 01/10/2023 18:20

StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 17:55

Also@LuluBlakey1 I have a good understanding of the policy.

Having worked in schools I can see this scenario you mention happening easily.

Mine is local government and I was literally quoting their own policy and guidance back at them as not been adhered to.

I did not ‘step into rudeness’ by doing this. It’s reasonable to refer to the document you are being held accountable to, in my case at least, perhaps not if you don’t actually understand the absence management policy in your colleagues case.

You seemed to be saying you were not wishing to discuss the questions about your well-being as your manager had not followed all the steps of the policy correctly. I was suggesting they are entitled to ask you to discuss absence/health/well-being if you have been absent. They may have to 'step-back' where they are in terms of the stages of the policy but the question is not unreasonable and being unwilling to discuss it could be seen as unreasonable.

IAmNoLady · 01/10/2023 18:32

I work in HR and I hate any situation where line managers or staff come to me with allegations of rudeness / tone of voice / aggressiveness / unprofessional behaviours, it is so subjective.

If I was in the meeting, and I thought you were becoming aggressive or unprofessional, I think I would break the meeting for a few minutes, to allow everyone to take a breath. But everyone has a different approach and the reality is that in the heat of the moment it can be really hard.

I would also add people pleasers (people who avoid conflict) are often not good at appropriate challenge. I have no idea if this is true for you, it is just my observation.

If I could hazard a guess about what happened, your line manager / HR came to the meeting with a checklist of points they wanted to cover. So did you. You made your points and then HR / your line manager felt they needed to get the meeting back to their agenda.

That being said, if your line manager is a bully, for your own sanity I would either raise a grievance or get another job.

CaroleSinger · 01/10/2023 18:34

So you say she said 'something like ' watch your tone? You're post isn't very clear. What actually did she say then? Those words, or something that wasn't like that which you may have taken out of context?

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 18:39

No, not that at all @LuluBlakey1

I thought we had discussed it enough. I wasn’t sure what else I could add to it.

I have been in good health since, no other absences. We were discussing guidance within the workplace to mitigate Covid which was a concern relating to my well being, which is relevant.

When we had taken a break and I returned I added no further detail. I said I was fine and I am.

They had addressed my concerns regarding Covid and my manager said her door was always open which I said I understood.

That was it. There have been two prior meetings to this I should add. A return to work meeting and a 1st stage trigger meeting at which my well being and absences were discussed.

So, I feel like my well being and the circumstances in relation to my instances of absence have been covered fully with my manager at those meetings already thinking about it.

There is nothing that has been identified health wise that would justify monitoring my well being (appointments or anticipated sickness due to surgery to discuss) but it is part part of policy for everyone.

So this is the third meeting regarding my absences where my well being and issues relating to my absence have been discussed, not the first.

This is mid point review meeting and I will be subject to another in a few months time.

OP posts:
LuluBlakey1 · 01/10/2023 18:42

StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 18:39

No, not that at all @LuluBlakey1

I thought we had discussed it enough. I wasn’t sure what else I could add to it.

I have been in good health since, no other absences. We were discussing guidance within the workplace to mitigate Covid which was a concern relating to my well being, which is relevant.

When we had taken a break and I returned I added no further detail. I said I was fine and I am.

They had addressed my concerns regarding Covid and my manager said her door was always open which I said I understood.

That was it. There have been two prior meetings to this I should add. A return to work meeting and a 1st stage trigger meeting at which my well being and absences were discussed.

So, I feel like my well being and the circumstances in relation to my instances of absence have been covered fully with my manager at those meetings already thinking about it.

There is nothing that has been identified health wise that would justify monitoring my well being (appointments or anticipated sickness due to surgery to discuss) but it is part part of policy for everyone.

So this is the third meeting regarding my absences where my well being and issues relating to my absence have been discussed, not the first.

This is mid point review meeting and I will be subject to another in a few months time.

I see. 🙂

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 18:44

RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 16:23

These posts are always interesting to me as my first thought was, would a man have been asked to watch his tone?

I've sat in on quite a number of HR meetings and definitely seen men called out on their tone /being too aggressive

RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 18:51

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 18:44

I've sat in on quite a number of HR meetings and definitely seen men called out on their tone /being too aggressive

Show quote history

But the OP wasn’t aggressive. She was assertive. A male trait that is admired.

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 18:53

RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 18:51

But the OP wasn’t aggressive. She was assertive. A male trait that is admired.

Show quote history

We don't know that, we only have the op's version of events

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 18:54

@IAmNoLady HR did a good job of making sure I didn’t veer off topic as I did wander off initially, and managed the agenda (there wasn’t one). They left scope for me to discuss the things I took issue with (so they could see if it was a grievance incoming) and clearly wanted a discussion with me about my well-being.

Whilst I appreciate ‘tone’ can be subjective I should add I receive critical feedback regularly and this was already a really emotive situation as I had been absolutely shafted by my manager using a HR policy outcome punitively and without proper communication about next steps. Rightly, I was aggrieved at this.

I don’t expect to have my tone policed when I have a grievance, for having a grievance? iyswim.

Which is what it was. I agree that subjectively it can be hrs to prove (which I’m not out to do, Union rep confirmed it to me) but more than is that heir role?

Other posters have commented that professional and respectful discussion works at ALL levels within organisations and I believe this to be true which is why I take exception to this.

This as not a disciplinary hearing. This was not to discuss any professional shortcomings. This was in response to my answer when they asked about my well being.

Also, if I sound vague it’s because I was incredibly stressed and as a result cannot recall word for word what she said exactly. I’m not hiding it or disguising it for the benefit of support on an anonymous forum.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 18:56

Here we go.

I’m been gas lit about my own version of experiences as a professional which I have asked for support on (to no benefit to anyone on here but MYSELF IRL) on an anonymous forum.

Gosh. Perhaps I should have videoed it for you with subs and we could all have a trial on my experiences word for word.

Jeez.

OP posts:
RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 19:02

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 18:53

We don't know that, we only have the op's version of events

Show quote history

And you feel better qualified to comment about OP’s conduct than the poster themselves? Who was there.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 19:11

@RudsyFarmer 🙏🏻🙏🏻

It’s bad enough thinking you might be at fault on some level for bullying. Coming on a forum for some support and insight to be gas lit feels pretty special 🤣

Maybe I deserve it? Maybe it’s just me? Maybe I’m bad at being assertive? Maybe I just don’t get along with people? Maybe ima deeply flawed person who can’t recognise when she is in the wrong because she is in the wrong all the time.

None if that is true and you can bet your backside that the manager is NOT questioning her approach or assertiveness as it’s a given that managers can speak to staff how they want and the onus is on them to prove it ‘subjectively’ and go through the stress of a grievance.

Thanks for the support and feedback. I’ve no colleagues as such to dissect it with ❤️

OP posts:
WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 19:29

RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 19:02

And you feel better qualified to comment about OP’s conduct than the poster themselves? Who was there.

Show quote history

No, I just always think it's a bad idea to just affirm someone's perception of events particularly when there are indicators it might not be accurate
In my experience very few people are capable of recognising when they are being overly assertive.

RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 19:31

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 19:29

No, I just always think it's a bad idea to just affirm someone's perception of events particularly when there are indicators it might not be accurate
In my experience very few people are capable of recognising when they are being overly assertive.

Show quote history

So you instead assumed the opposite.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 19:36

For what it’s worth I’m not asking you to validate my perception on here. I think I’ve done a pretty good job of validating my position and the circumstances around it as best I can without a video link and transcript.

Of course I could be lying or misrepresenting the circumstances, it is an anonymous forum after all.

The inference being I am the unreliable staff member/lowly employee, who the manager has taken issue with, only rightly of course, and therefore deserving of HR threat to to watch my tone.

What constitutes being overly assertive in your opinion? What does that look like?

OP posts:
ChocolateCinderToffee · 01/10/2023 19:37

I do wonder if, having been caught out not adhering to management procedures, your manager wanted to put you in the wrong about something to regain the initiative and the HR person backed him or her up.

As others have said, HR are there to support management. They will always support managers rather than rank and file staff.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 19:42

ChocolateCinderToffee · 01/10/2023 19:37

I do wonder if, having been caught out not adhering to management procedures, your manager wanted to put you in the wrong about something to regain the initiative and the HR person backed him or her up.

As others have said, HR are there to support management. They will always support managers rather than rank and file staff.

Yes this is what I think too. If I had left the meeting without the warning from HR which was clearly prepped for, I would have had a shred of hope that my dignity at work could remain intact, definitely not now.

Yes I’m under no illusion as to their role, that’s why I took my union rep with me as witness.

The only hope I may have is if senior management take exception to my leaving and question the circumstances as to why I am going…

OP posts:
WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 19:47

RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 19:31

So you instead assumed the opposite.

Show quote history

I haven't assumed anything either way.

WelshNerd · 01/10/2023 19:50

If you want to leave, ask your union rep if you think there's any chance of negotiating a suitable move to another role (obviously away from you manager) or a compromise agreement.

Whether this is likely will depend a lot on local circumstances and what else is going on in the organisation.

Jellycatspyjamas · 01/10/2023 19:58

If my union rep felt I was unfairly challenged they would have addressed it during the meeting - that’s what they’re there for. I completely understand you were caught off guard, but did your union rep not respond given they felt the challenge was unwarranted?

supplycaptain · 01/10/2023 19:59

Sounds stressful

Not really sure what to advise. I think if I were in your situation and was asked about my wellbeing, I’d egg on how upsetting and stressful I found the whole thing cause they need to take that into account. I reckon if you’d said that, they wouldn’t dare police your “tone”.

they can 100% replace you if you leave, they won’t be stuck with no one to cover. If anything, they’ll just increase the salary of your role to entice an experienced replacement

its an interesting debate as to what is assertive vs rude. Being assertive can be rude, they’re not mutually exclusive. And yes, some men are rude when they’re assertive so it’s not exclusive to women. I tend to err on the side of overly friendly/diplomatic to the point I might sound like I have a baby voice. But no one ever polices my tone and I tend to get what I want in these situations

supplycaptain · 01/10/2023 20:08

Also do you know the outcome of this meeting? There were errors in the process, so will the intended trigger point warning be given? Are they formally addressing your tone or was it informal? Are you back at work? Were any adjustments offered?

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 20:13

Jellycatspyjamas · 01/10/2023 19:58

If my union rep felt I was unfairly challenged they would have addressed it during the meeting - that’s what they’re there for. I completely understand you were caught off guard, but did your union rep not respond given they felt the challenge was unwarranted?

I think she was shocked tbh.

The HR rep shrugged when we asked for a break (at my reps suggestion as she could see the HR person was out of order and escalating it in an unwarranted way)she got me out of there. She did ask if there was anything I wanted her to do but at that point I wanted the meeting to be over.

The HR person did not provide further clarity when the meeting resumed.

OP posts: