I live in London and am 31 but yet I know very few people who would be trapped renting all their lives.

[lavender2023]

I am wondering if this is atypical? I am talking about people I know personally. Of course we know people who rent or live with parents. Those who live with parents (long term) tend to be in 2 categories:
(a) long term sick or serious mental health issues; often not working, probably would struggle to buy or even rent their own place with or without a housing crisis as their problems are bigger than that (its a shortage of sheltered housing rather than housing per se)
(b) from cultures where this is normal and even expected.

The people I know who rent tend to be recent immigrants (last 2-3 years; the immigrants I know who have been here long enough to obtain ILR all own, including me) or they are renting for lifestyle reasons (could easily afford to buy but choose not to; or like someone I know whose parents own an apartment that he can live in rent free (but he wants to live in central London). I know two people in social housing but I would argue they are reasonably secure. Many of my neighbours are renters but then again many of them appear to be immigrants from places like HK (and are probably pretty recent).

Almost everyone I know who bought in London has received help from parents including me and DH (who live in his mum's house rent free for 3 years). Most people we know have gotten actual cash though. I used to know far more colleagues in my age group who rented but now that I am 31, most seem to have bought and the younger ones are increasingly staying at home while working in London. Given that the latter is what Dh and I did as young graduates in London, I highly doubt they would be forced into private rental as DH and I managed to save £90k in 3 years when living at home which still counts for something even in London with the current mortgage rates.

Logically, my experience is not the reality. the home ownership rate for those under 40 is something like 50%. So there are a lot of people out there in private rental. Yet I feel like it is something I read about in the papers. Is this why there has been no political consensus on the housing crisis because middle income people are insulated from it (even in London where the housing crisis is most acute). I must imagine people in cheaper areas must be truly insulated from it because a friend of mine on (less than £30k) can afford to buy a modest flat in the midlands on his own.

DH does have family who are in long term rental (don't think its choice) but they live in a different country so probably not fair to compare.

But to quote @TheGhostofLoganRoy

But of course the MN tinkly laugh brigade love to humble brag about how they "only" own whatever, they "only" earn some vast sum that's three times the average, they "only" lived rent-free for x many years, their parents are poor because they "only" own a three-bedroom house in London, they "only" go skiing twice a year, their toilet is "only" gold plated and not solid gold... either you're incredibly out of touch and genuinely believe these things to be "poor" or you're doing it on purpose to brag. Either way, it's obnoxious.

No. It's not obnoxious. It the way we love in the western world. No one out of the ordinary claims to have "only" gold plated toilets 🙄.

You and @lavender2023 are either the same person or friends connecting on the same post because all of what you have said is absolute nonsense.
Have you ever even been to England? 🤣

She bought it in 1996. It was a former 2 up 2 down Victorian terrace with extensions. Built for factory workers. The ground floor extension is the dining room now so the original separate dining room became SIL's bedroom and later the bedroom DH and I shared. There is a reception. The first floor extension is the bathroom and then the previous occupant also carved out the box room from the former spacious bathroom- that was DH's childhood bedroom. His youngest sister lives there now. There were two other normal bedrooms..

4 kids so generally it accommodated a max of 6 people. Previously MIL had 3 kids in a 1 bed flat before she moved to this house.

I know what you mean OP. I’m nearly 31 and all my friends own homes with the exception of:

• one who chooses to rent because he is hoping to settle down in the next couple of years and doesn’t want to be saddled with a mortgage on a one bed flat in central london
• one who has decided to say fuck it and go travelling
• one who is chronically under employed/poor at managing money and would fall into the category of issues being bigger than the housing crisis

Some people got help, most didn’t actually. I’m thinking of work colleagues more junior to me as well as friends. I don’t know who all the renters are either

I would be in my home country and probably own a government flat. In my home country, 85% of people live in government flats that they also own. If I wasn't married I would be living with my parents.

I've never lived in a council property, I've private rented since the age of 16.

I actually have not been in a council house, but I think that's because I don't know anyone with kids. I'm sure if I knew more families, then I would know people who have council houses, it's just the stage of life that I'm at, almost everyone in my social circle is living alone in bedsits/studio flats, or in houseshares.

I'd argue that someone who claims they have never been inside a 3 bed home also lives in a bubble, albeit a different one.

But that's literally my point?? We all live in bubbles. Working class people are aware that our bubbles don't represent everyone, so why can't middle class people have the same level of self-awareness?

I am 33 and I will rent all my life. My mum hasn't got a pot to piss in, I am NC with my dad who is in prison, and I'm a lone parent in a housing association flat.

Agreed but according to this, still definitely above average so not "modest" compared to most.

Have you ever even been to England? 🤣

I was born in London and have lived in London my entire life.

This has nothing to do with England, it has to do with the fact Mumsnet is very very middle class and likes to sneer at anyone who comes from a background of extreme deprivation.

I'd be willing to bet money that most of the posters here have never even met someone from my background.

Nearly all my friends from when I lived in London own a house/flat. Many had inheritance or were from London and could live rent free with parents. A few did the part buy part rent scheme.

Nearly all moved out to Greater London, where 5 years ago you could buy a 3 bed fixer upper for under £300k. None own in Zone 1-3.

All bought as 2 income couples. No one I know bought on their own. But then no one I know outside of London has bought on their own.

Most earn a fair bit more than if they did the same job outside of London and had greater opportunities for promotion, so had positions in 10 years that could potentially take 20 to get in other areas.

I have friends outside of London who have greater struggles getting on the housing market because the house price to wage ratios are poor. Tourists towns where jobs are usually low paid hospitality wages but house prices are inflated due to the second home/ air B&B suffer a lot.

I have friends outside of London who have greater struggles getting on the housing market because the house price to wage ratios are poor

This is very true.

While housing costs here are lower than in London, the disparity with local wages is arguably higher. This has got worse in recent years due to air bnbs etc. Wages in this area are low, with very few big employers.

that is horrifying when you consider that median house prices are 9 times the median wage in London. It used to be 11 times but it has improved in the past year.

I guess that's one way to solve London's unaffordable housing crisis - by accepting that Essex is now London 🙃

It'll be studio flats in Dartford next

To privately purchase a three-bedroom house in London, I'm sorry, but many people would consider that a very large house that only a wealthy person could afford

But you are aware @TheGhostofLoganRoy that years ago many parts of London were not very desirable & property wasn't expensive

My DD (40s) - medical secretary NHS, and my SIL (40s), gas engineer, bought a 3 bed semi in a fairly desirable London commute belt about 7 years ago. They have extended it to a 4 bed with a roof extension.

They manage ok.

I think you are right that this issue goes I dealt with because those on middle incomes aren’t affected (though actually, as someone who is part of a household with a middle -high income, living in a city, unless your parents are high earners it is still impossible to buy - particularly if they cannot afford for you to live with them rent free for years on end).

We are definitely going to hit a crises point in around 30-40 years time. People are going to reach old age and be unable to pay their rent. What happens then?

So it really doesn’t matter if you received £100k towards your house once, your day-to-day existence is likely to be a struggle compared to someone earning £60k (even if they’re renting instead of paying a mortgage).

@Usernamen no there's nuance. If you were earning 18k & got on the ladder at a young age potentially you have the opportunity to build much more wealth then someone renting on 60k. House prices have grown much faster than wages, I couldn't afford my house now.

If it's like now, either "older" people will be able to afford the rent, because of private pensions/inherited wealth/whatever, or they will have to claim housing benefit.

That's exactly the problem, people don't accept that having been in a position to be able to purchase property back then is a form of privilege.

People have no idea how dire it is if you're a recent-ish university graduate or person in the early stages of building a career with no parents, no partner (so no one to share the financial burden), no kids (so no hope of getting council housed) and no financial safety net.

Tons of younger people have no support and are totally alone and are just totally fucked. And being condescended by older people who were lucky enough to buy houses for a song (or people who lived entirely off the bank of mum and dad yet bizarrely claim to be "poor") doesn't exactly help.

@TheGhostofLoganRoy I haven't said it wasn't a form of privilege. I was just making the point that's it's ridiculous to claim that people who bought years ago in London were all wealthy.

You are conflating different things.

And there will be no awareness of the plight of such people if we don't venture outside my bubble. My worry is also that people will inevitably recalibrate and fashion their lives in accordance with the dysfunctional housing market.

For example, parents massively downsizing to give their kids deposits becoming a lot more common (apparently some also take on financial risk to give their kids more), people only choosing partners who have inherited wealth a la Jane Austen, people moving abroad to work in low tax jurisdictions to save up money for the deposit, people only choosing to work in lucrative fields and eschewing nhs and other helping jobs because thats the only way they can make rent/save for a deposit. People not progressing in their careers because they know that they will only attain housing security if they stay in a cheap area (that also has no jobs) which also impedes productivity and labour mobility.

This would change our society and not for the better. So it may be that the home ownership rate may not go down as much as we think but for all the wrong reasons.

For example, parents massively downsizing to give their kids deposits becoming a lot more common (apparently some also take on financial risk to give their kids more), people only choosing partners who have inherited wealth a la Jane Austen, people moving abroad to work in low tax jurisdictions to save up money for the deposit, people only choosing to work in lucrative fields and eschewing nhs and other helping jobs because thats the only way they can make rent/save for a deposit. People not progressing in their careers because they know that they will only attain housing security if they stay in a cheap area (that also has no jobs) which also impedes productivity and labour mobility.

people already do this.

Look at any of the threads about inheritance tax, it's despised & many will do everything they can to avoid it.

Well I would disagree with that. I think it's just people being privilege-deaf.

There are plenty of working class older/elderly people who have never been in a position to purchase homes, ever. Yes houses used to be much cheaper, but housing has never been affordable for all.

The way things have changed is that in the 1980s and 1990s, ordinary middle class and upper working class people could buy houses on relatively modest incomes, often on a single income, and this wasn't just due to property prices, it was due to mortgage availability.

Now, you have to either have family help, or be part of a couple both earning a high salary to purchase.

So clearly things have changed a lot, and I understand why people who bought in the 1990s (who don't consider themselves to be especially wealthy or privileged) feel angry at being perceived as privileged.

But here's the thing you're overlooking: there's a huge difference between ordinary non-privileged salaried people, and the truly underprivileged who come backgrounds of extreme deprivation. Home ownership has never been an option for the latter. Privilege isn't absolute, it's always relative. A lot of people like to pretend Britain doesn't have a problem with people living in extreme poverty or deprivation, or blames people for their own problems, because they don't want to have to address their own good fortune to not be born into that background. Because it makes them uncomfortable.

As we've seen on this thread, there's a lot of people who have experienced tremendous good fortune (like being able to live rent free with family) who pretend they're actually poor, or pretend they're not privileged.

I come from just about the lowest background it's possible to have in the UK but I still admit that, globally, I'm very privileged (compared to people in certain other countries). I don't know why people are so desperate to deny the good fortune they've had in life, whether that's the good fortune to be born in an era of cheaper housing, or the good fortune to be able to live rent free and save.

I genuinely don't see any way out except suicide.

I've been homeless or rough sleeping for about a quarter of my life, housing and money stuff still feels completely precarious. I'm doing okay right now job-wise but I'm under no illusion how tough things will be when I'm old.

Yes but the point of this thread is to illustrate how ingrained it must be, that i am living in the most unaffordable region of the UK but yet most of the people i know (who are not on investment banker salaries) still own their property. I think people are actually doing their utmost to buy in these circumstances and i think it is very harmful.

Maybe in 5-10 years time, it would be impossible for a man to get a date (for a serious relationship, not just a booty call) on Tinder if he doesn't share a screenshot of his bank account (showing minimum £50k in savings), a legal agreement signed by his family members that they undertake to contribute at least 50% of the deposit on their first home or a promise of rent free living at the family home for a minimum of 3 years. Or vice versa.

We might laugh but this might be the reality in future.

@TheGhostofLoganRoy

"The way things have changed is that in the 1980s and 1990s, ordinary middle class and upper working class people could buy houses on relatively modest incomes, often on a single income, and this wasn't just due to property prices, it was due to mortgage availability"

So we agree as these people were not necessarily always wealthy....