I think an 18 year old is an adult -AIBU?

[Drdoomish]

They can get married
They can live under their own steam away from parents
They can take out loans and get into exceptional debt
They can fight and die for our country
They can become an MP or councillor
They can legally get pissed in a pub
They can get their own tattoo
They can sit on a jury
They can leave education
And do all the things that adults can do...

So why, WHY, do the government use a parents income to decide how much living cost loan they will lend to an 18-24 university student?

YABU - An 18 yr old uni student is still a dependent
YANBU - An 18 yr old uni student is an adult in their own right.

We might be “rich” but we have a hugely expensive health service. We have different priorities. We have huge numbers not paying tax and not working. We have very low productivity and wages are stagnant. We are not a rich as we think we are. Our debt is horrific. We are loading more and more national debt onto our young people.

Also, why would we fine the rich free uni tuition? We used to do exactly that and it’s hardly fair. Nor is it fair to tax the lower paid who never went to uni to pay for degrees that, in some cases, are not remotely necessary! We do need a rethink but it should be far more going into work and higher training, not full time degrees.

In countries such as France you pay for many health care services, including things like GP appointments in many cases. Yes it is heavily subsidised but it is it universally free at the point of use like the UK.

Sorry - not universally free! You get a rebate.

Depends what you need though. I got the minimum loan and no parental help at all. So I needed to work, and my part time jobs wouldn't have taken me if I was only available during uni term time. I needed the accommodation year round, I never went home because I was working.

@TizerorFizz well blame Tony Blair and his ridiculous goal of 50% of kids should go to university and making out it was somehow 'better' than going to tech college/polytechnic. Cue all the polys (which we needed and which did a fantastic job) becoming universities. There are lots of things now taught in universities that shouldn't be thus forcing kids to go to university to qualify, e.g. nurses.

Successive governments - Tory/libs/labour have not stopped tinkering since - no joined up thinking, no long term strategy, no way any parent can guess what it will be like when their small children are 18, universities turned into businesses. No concept that as a country we need to educate our future workforce effectively - and to not make education a privilege.

It's a complete shitshow.

@WeWereInParis I understand that is what some students need or want to do but it should be a choice. Also when planning parents are thinking costs will only be for the actual academic term when in fact it is usually for longer. The vast majority I know including my DD work part time at uni but also go back from May - September and work at home. Going home saves on living expenses which is quite a lot right now.

@Mytholmroyd Your uni history knowledge is completely wrong. The polys became unis in 1992 following the Conservative’s Further and Higher Education Act 1992. The “Post 92 Group” of unis gives you a clue!

The lifting of the cap on numbers was 2013. Again a Conservative Government. This was probably a big mistake and led to grade inflation to fill the places. It certainly helped promote the Tony Blair goal.

The biggest mistake wasn’t the polys becoming unis as they offered degrees prior to 1992. Other HE colleges largely didn’t but greatly supported employers and vocational training. That was the error and many of them languish in the lower reaches of league tables. HNDs should be the stepping stone for many more to degree level study. Plus apprenticeships facilitating this. Now we have a very expensive model which is too broad and we cannot afford it. Therefore we ask parents to pay and grads to pay extra tax.

It’s difficult to know if the uk has benefitted or not as many jobs were successfully done by HE students, eg most NHS medical jobs, before degrees became essential.

Yep. It’s an absolute scam

“York has a weekly college meal included in most self catering but plenty around £6-7000 mark.”
@TizerorFizz The fact that you think that £6-£7k is nothing, speaks volumes. Maybe you should try checking your privilege once in a while

@Fififafa Don’t need silly personal comments from you! I’m advocating taking cheaper accommodation as my own Dc did. DD1 had a shared room. DD2 spent half she could have done. We cut our coat etc.

The York figures are what very many unis charge! Nothing whatever to do with me. Do you not understand that? I’m just giving info for context. It’s also less than the max loan. Sadly you haven’t kept up to date with prices. So don’t hurl abuse at the messenger. My point was there’s choice at less than £9k and it’s not all catered accommodation at York. Take a look at Liverpool uni prices. That socialist city has high prices too.

Whatever the prices are, we still have vast numbers going to uni so most afford it. The full grant and bursaries are enough for rent and living costs. The poorest are supported. Others just above are clearly less well supported but they are, on paper, not so poor. It’s the ever present poverty trap and we struggle to solve it. So those just above the full loan threshold are worse off. No doubt about it but families need to talk about it much earlier.

@TizerorFizz Completely? 😂 okay, yes, I should not have said polys - I meant further education colleges/technical colleges etc.

But I think you are misunderstanding what 'post-92' means - it does not mean IN 1992/because of the FHEA and only the polytechnics as you state. There are many institutions in that group that gained university status between 1992 and 2013 - Winchester, Edge Hill, London Met, UHI, Imperial, Bolton, Bath Spa, lots of Welsh Unis, etc

Huge explosion in 'universities' to meet the 50% target proposed by Blair in 1999.

I disagree with you that we can't fund education because we fund the NHS - our corrupt government wastes billions and has completely forgotten its one and only job is to make the lives of the people better not squeeze us dry to fill the pockets of the already rich and powerful.

If Scotland can fund free tuition and the NHS - there is no reason England cannot.

@TizerorFizz Not sure why you think I haven’t kept up with prices? I have one DC at University and one starting soon, so I’m very much aware. You are saying that the maintenance loan will cover accommodation, but what is the student meant to live off? Part time jobs just don’t bring in enough.
We have a cost of living crisis so many parents are already cash strapped. Student accommodation costs have also increased recently and their is a shortage of student landlords in many areas.£6-£7k is a big chunk and the vast majority of students don’t get the max loan.
So as has already been mentioned that £6-£7k is often more than the full years maintenance loan that the student is entitled to.
If the student has parents who are willing to dig deep to support them, are able to financially support them ,were able to save enough whilst they were younger, don’t have multiple DC etc then that’s fine.

Many students just aren’t in this position. It seems that these students are the ones losing out here. They are being disadvantaged due to their parents’ circumstances and/or choices. How is that fair?

I have not said the minimum msintebebve loan covers accommodation. Parents have been expected to top up for years. Those getting full loan can easily afford a cheaper hall. In between it’s more of a chdkkrnge and parents are expected to top
up.

How many actually are being disadvantaged by parents not finding enough money? How many take expensive halls when they don’t need to? Do we truly know? Huge numbers on MN won’t share a bathroom at uni but they do at home.

There clearly is a poverty trap situation. I know that: but it’s not the same as saying most parents don’t find the money. Plus grandparents. I believe the vast majority do. Of course others work. They always did. A few Parents have always refused to pay up when the grants system was in operation. My father for my sister. My in laws too. Dh worked in the holidays so they decided their two decent incomes wouldn’t fund one child. No accounting for being mean. Students do find a way though. Universities as try and help too.

I agree it’s leading to more Dc staying at home for uni but lots like that idea anyway and it’s quite well funded by comparison and helps out family finance. I’m against it when the uni is not as good but it really depends what Dc want to do with their degree. For many it’s not moving elsewhere so local suits in all sorts of ways.

£6000 is a problem on minimum loan with bills and mortgages going up but students really can work to help the situation.

I don’t do governments as corrupt. That’s a big call. They make choices you don’t agree with. I would prefer to pay for elements of health care. Others scream blue murder at that. We have a sacred cow of a health service and it will squeeze everything else. If anything it’s corrupt to have such a massive national debt that must be managed by our Dc when older folk (that's me!) get many of the benefits.

@Mytholmroyd Imperial became a university in 1908. However some of the colleges should have stayed as HE providers. That genie won’t get back in the bottle!

You make the point for a better educated work force... we have low pay and low productivity!!!

France's debt to GDP is higher than the UKs @ 105% and we spend less on health than most EU countries.

Loading debt onto young people? indeed we are, 10s of '000s and at high interest rates, much of which will never be paid back but will keep people poorer.

Your argument on why should the rich get free Uni education? why should they get free NHS care or free state education?

Degree's are the way the world has chosen to go, its not just a UK thing, the work place is far more technically advanced than ever before, a nurse trained in the 70s wouldn't stand a chance working in todays hospitals, we also do not enough staff in our hospitals to provide support and training for full time apprentices

I grew up in the grant/fees paid era. I wanted to go to uni but my parents didn't want me to. I'd already left home at 15 to stay with family so I could do exams, but they still used my parents income and I got nothing except fees paid. I still went and worked throughout instead to cover living costs.

At least if they're going to carry on using parents, raise it to the same figures as things like tax free childcare, where the child can still get support up to £100k or something.

I'm aware that the financial crisis of the last year has made a huge difference in a lot of people's ability to support their Dc at uni and at the same time, prices have gone up crazily high.

So even those who planned and saved still wouldn't have enough at this point.

I had a small children's trust (?)for each of my DC that I paid £25 into from birth and roughly calculated to end at uni age. That seemed a huge amount to me at the time, and resulted in 2.5-3.5 K each. Laughably small amount when you look at how much everything costs, even a few years back.

I didn't do that because I was planning for uni though, I'm not that good at looking ahead 😂

I also realise now how extremely lucky I was that my income just met the low threshold for maintenance loans and my DC got bursaries as well. I really feel for anyone trying to find multiple K out of their normal income - I wouldn't be able to manage it.

Pro tip for year abroad, if British Council is an option do that, they will get paid and not have loads of essays to write and exams to pass. They also will have extra time to tutor for a bit more cash.

I was still dependent on my parents at that age, 18 is very young. And so many loans never get paid back, I never have and many of my friends haven't.

YABU because adults can be dependents. It’s a different category.

Excuse the typos. It was early.

Imperial College didn't become a university in its own right and award its own degrees until 2006. Prior to that it awarded University of London degrees. It is a post-1992 university.

As part of my role as our Department's First generation scholar lead/support (as one myself), I have gone into schools in our region from where we traditionally don't get applications to speak and I have been told they would not consider applying or suggesting students apply as they just don't think they'd get in/it's only for posh people etc so I think there are still lots of barriers perceived if not real. And the horrors of such a huge debt do put a lot of working class people off even considering it.

We have foundation years, lower offers for disadvantaged students/widening participation, we run Sutton Trust summer schools etc etc but we are still near/at the bottom of league tables for this despite being one of the 'aspirational' universities in northern England

That said, I don't think university is the best place to teach many subjects - am reminded of the essay written (can't recall the famous writer off the top of my head) complaining vociferously about the proposal that medical colleges should be brought into universities in the ?19th century because they taught practical skills not academic ones! Must dig that out!

This is exactly the attitude I see in my area mytholmroyd!

Parents have contributed in the past but not in the same league of the current levels.
A couple on a joint income of £26,000 stops a student getting a full loan in England. They are a low income household. A couple on £30,000 each mean child is on min loan - most people wouldn’t class them as extremely high earners.
Students ‘find a way’ by compromising on where they go. They don’t even look as it’s so far out of their reach.
For some living at home and getting train or bus to UCLAN is fine. But what about the ones with 3 A star and big ambitions. Yes law course is same UCAS code but there’s virtually no chance of city law or bar if student opts for that over her UCL London or Durham offer as her parents can’t or won’t pay the £5000 a year.
We aren’t all thick up north and unless everyone has same access to top courses it’s not a level playing field. We need STEM graduates and lots of the top universities for those students are London.
Yes there’s ways around it, gap year etc but that relies on parental support too. Don’t be silly love you can do exactly same course and live at home.
These aren’t imagined scenarios I know students who are told to live at home group or stay locks.
Lancaster is very popular as it’s commutable (where largest number go to from dc’s state grammar) Not knocking Lancaster it’s a great Uni but if you have 3 A star then you should be able to at least look at unis that are Russell group or top 10 for your course.
We are in England my DC will get under £5000 a year maintenance loan. If we were in Wales she’s on just under £12,000 loan.
The unis seem to have the expensive en-suite accommodation now. I went back to my old Uni room last year - it was being remodelled to have an en-suite and is self catering now. My husband was in a double share that option doesn’t exist any more.
Yes some might opt for expensive but all the accommodation talks I’ve sat through this year were limited low price prioritising certain categories, no guarantees, take what you you can get. It stops people applying. London might be doable if you get the £180 room allocated but £250 no chance, why risk it.

It is very common for students from my son's old school regardless of grades to apply to Keele or Staffs only, if they are very ambitious they might consider Manchester or Man Met.