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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I think an 18 year old is an adult -AIBU?

242 replies

Drdoomish · 22/09/2023 07:19

They can get married
They can live under their own steam away from parents
They can take out loans and get into exceptional debt
They can fight and die for our country
They can become an MP or councillor
They can legally get pissed in a pub
They can get their own tattoo
They can sit on a jury
They can leave education
And do all the things that adults can do...

So why, WHY, do the government use a parents income to decide how much living cost loan they will lend to an 18-24 university student?

YABU - An 18 yr old uni student is still a dependent
YANBU - An 18 yr old uni student is an adult in their own right.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Drdoomish · 24/09/2023 09:43

MrsJellybee · 24/09/2023 09:35

No, if you marry, your partner’s income counts instead.

If a new partner moves into the family home 3 months before the application, their income counts.

Hence me not having a live in partner after my XH and I split when DD was 14. It would cost her too much.

OP posts:
autienotnaughty · 24/09/2023 09:45

Agree completely. My husband (step fathers) wage was taking into account even tho he has zero parental responsibility.

Drdoomish · 24/09/2023 09:45

NoTouch · 24/09/2023 09:33

When ds was a young teen and heading in that direction and I had heard there were loans available I didnt just assume it would be enough to cover every option and expense. Why would it?

18 is an adult and capable of supporting themselves and being independent if they choose to. If they don't want to support themselves and head to further education they remain dependent and of course the loans should be means tested. I do not agree the government should use its magic money tree and pick up even more cost for every student.

I have sympathy for young people whose parents refuse, make lifestyle choices that mean they can't afford to support their dc, or don't plan for their childrens education. But less so for the parents who have/had the means.

And there is the reason why the gap between rich and poor is getting wider...

Young people need more than sympathy

OP posts:
tiggergoesbounce · 24/09/2023 09:48

Surely if it is the 18year old that has to repay the debt ( and not the parent) it is the 18year old to decide on that level of debt.

It should be a case of how much help will you be receiving, not what you could be afforded by your parents, i know quite well off parents that dont help their kids at all. Thats their perogative, but the child shouldn't be punished for it.

Zwicky · 24/09/2023 10:00

The system is ridiculous for many reasons

The loans are very often not enough to live on - extra (but still not enough) for London but not other expensive cities such as Edinburgh or Bristol.

The loans put a burden on parents for the decisions taken by adult children. Not just 18 year olds but children up to 25 can be considered “dependent”.

Parents do not have to top up the loan. There is little recourse if they don’t. Students whose parents can’t or won’t top up loans are left much worse off than students who get the full loan.

The calculations take into consideration “household income” even when that income isn’t the income of the students actual parent.

The calculations don’t take into consideration the students parent if they don’t (or say they don’t) live together. This means in reality staying at the other parents fewer than 182 nights per year. Huge variation through having a non contact missing or dead parent and staying 180 nights a year with your zillionaire dad but it’s all treated the same.

The calculations don’t take into consideration other dependants such as actual children living at home or other adult children.

The long vacation traditionally to allowed students to work but realistically they would be better off studying over a shorter period of time (2 year degree course) or having less contact time per week over more weeks of the year in order to hold down a steady part time job in their university city.

The loans are largely not repaid - hence the governments reluctance to loan larger amounts to more people. Maintenance loan is mostly handed over to landlords who charge higher prices for student accommodation than they would get for other renters. There is no other demographic that would happily rent a single room in a shared flat with absolute strangers for £200 a week. Crappy rundown private lets rented per room to students are typically going for around 50% more than renting the whole house to a family and it’s all done of unrepayable government loans. It’s a transfer of public money to private hands.

Lots of parents won’t put away money every month for this eventuality because they either can’t afford it, don’t value it, or it hasn’t occurred to them that it’s needed. Women who chose to have dc close together to cut down on non earning sahp time are getting an unexpected kicking at the other end.

If we are expected to support adult children until they can support themselves then what about the benefit system. Should a 40yo making an application for UC have to give the income of her 65yo mums live in boyfriend? That’s a ridiculous example but that’s where we end up without a line as to what is a dependent child and what is an independent adult.

Daisymay2 · 24/09/2023 10:02

The other thing you need to bear in mind is that when they come to claim free dental and script charges, NHS BA include the loan as income (ffs) and worse than that, if they don’t take a loan, they treat it as foregone income and add it in to their income calculations. Ergo, they don’t qualify. I don’t think many with jobs and decent grants qualify either.
I have long been a believer in a Graduate tax, for all higher education qualifications, 1 or 2 p throughout a 40 plus year career wouldn’t have been a bad thing and then maybe grants would have been funded from previous generations, but it’s too late now.

Lavenderflower · 24/09/2023 10:05

Most young people these age are quite dependent on their parents, which why care leaver are deemed a priority for something as they do not have the normal support network.

Pinkglobelamp · 24/09/2023 10:07

Yes, I've known a number of students from wealthy working class families in particular whose parents don't value university education so refused to fund their children. Students from abusive families also and with stepparents who (arguably reasonably) refuse to pay for stepchildren's education.

The system is highly divisive and makes it harder for children from poorer or less accommodating or caring families — arguably those who need university the most.

NoTouch · 24/09/2023 10:17

tiggergoesbounce · 24/09/2023 09:48

Surely if it is the 18year old that has to repay the debt ( and not the parent) it is the 18year old to decide on that level of debt.

It should be a case of how much help will you be receiving, not what you could be afforded by your parents, i know quite well off parents that dont help their kids at all. Thats their perogative, but the child shouldn't be punished for it.

Absolutely not an 18 years olds decision to decide how much money to borrow, as many will never pay off their loans in full and it is written off and the cost is borne by the tax payer not the 18 year old.

Instead of the magic money tree, do people want the government to step in and help these young people by enforcing parents with the means to fulfil their obligations? Make the decision for them to start paying into a fund to top up the government loan, for their futures when their child(ren) are born?

drinkuptheezider · 24/09/2023 10:20

Student finance drove me nuts when DS2 was at uni. They wanted further information from me, I rang them, they wouldn't speak to me, only my son. We went round in circles
Me: Do you want the information?
Them: Yes,
Me: Well, you need to speak to me then
Them: We need to speak to David
Me: He isn't here, he has moved to Northern Town to start uni, if you want the information you will speak to me then
Them: Sorry, we need to speak to David
Me: I'm not asking you for information about his loans, you are asking me for information
Look, he is either an adult in his own right, so you don't need this information, OR he is a child that his mother needs to provide information, make your mind up, please.

They decided they needed information. 🫣

Topseyt123 · 24/09/2023 11:05

drinkuptheezider · 24/09/2023 10:20

Student finance drove me nuts when DS2 was at uni. They wanted further information from me, I rang them, they wouldn't speak to me, only my son. We went round in circles
Me: Do you want the information?
Them: Yes,
Me: Well, you need to speak to me then
Them: We need to speak to David
Me: He isn't here, he has moved to Northern Town to start uni, if you want the information you will speak to me then
Them: Sorry, we need to speak to David
Me: I'm not asking you for information about his loans, you are asking me for information
Look, he is either an adult in his own right, so you don't need this information, OR he is a child that his mother needs to provide information, make your mind up, please.

They decided they needed information. 🫣

Those are exactly the sorts of conversations we have had with them. Many times. That's why I can't wait for our parental involvement with them to be at an end and feel so bad that our DDs will still have to deal with them for decades.

My DD3 had also filled in a form giving them permission to discuss her student finance loans with me in her absence (year abroad, beginning in South America from where it was going to be very difficult and prohibitively expensive for her to make contact with them). They ignored it and refused to pay attention to it when I reminded them it was there. Hence, we eventually had to get our MP involved to kick their arses.

They were an absolute nightmare, and despite DD's written permission to deal with me, which was submitted using their own forms and templates, they only wanted to speak to her.

Fififafa · 24/09/2023 11:11

Zwicky · 24/09/2023 10:00

The system is ridiculous for many reasons

The loans are very often not enough to live on - extra (but still not enough) for London but not other expensive cities such as Edinburgh or Bristol.

The loans put a burden on parents for the decisions taken by adult children. Not just 18 year olds but children up to 25 can be considered “dependent”.

Parents do not have to top up the loan. There is little recourse if they don’t. Students whose parents can’t or won’t top up loans are left much worse off than students who get the full loan.

The calculations take into consideration “household income” even when that income isn’t the income of the students actual parent.

The calculations don’t take into consideration the students parent if they don’t (or say they don’t) live together. This means in reality staying at the other parents fewer than 182 nights per year. Huge variation through having a non contact missing or dead parent and staying 180 nights a year with your zillionaire dad but it’s all treated the same.

The calculations don’t take into consideration other dependants such as actual children living at home or other adult children.

The long vacation traditionally to allowed students to work but realistically they would be better off studying over a shorter period of time (2 year degree course) or having less contact time per week over more weeks of the year in order to hold down a steady part time job in their university city.

The loans are largely not repaid - hence the governments reluctance to loan larger amounts to more people. Maintenance loan is mostly handed over to landlords who charge higher prices for student accommodation than they would get for other renters. There is no other demographic that would happily rent a single room in a shared flat with absolute strangers for £200 a week. Crappy rundown private lets rented per room to students are typically going for around 50% more than renting the whole house to a family and it’s all done of unrepayable government loans. It’s a transfer of public money to private hands.

Lots of parents won’t put away money every month for this eventuality because they either can’t afford it, don’t value it, or it hasn’t occurred to them that it’s needed. Women who chose to have dc close together to cut down on non earning sahp time are getting an unexpected kicking at the other end.

If we are expected to support adult children until they can support themselves then what about the benefit system. Should a 40yo making an application for UC have to give the income of her 65yo mums live in boyfriend? That’s a ridiculous example but that’s where we end up without a line as to what is a dependent child and what is an independent adult.

Fantastic post! Sums up this mess perfectly! Hope some of the smug posters take heed.

Topseyt123 · 24/09/2023 11:14

tiggergoesbounce · 24/09/2023 09:48

Surely if it is the 18year old that has to repay the debt ( and not the parent) it is the 18year old to decide on that level of debt.

It should be a case of how much help will you be receiving, not what you could be afforded by your parents, i know quite well off parents that dont help their kids at all. Thats their perogative, but the child shouldn't be punished for it.

That suggests that you think it is OK for children who are still at school when they are starting to set these things up to make decisions about taking out loans. Those decisions and the ensuing debt will follow them around for the rest of their working lives.

The majority of barely 17 year olds still in sixth form or sixth form college would still not have much concept of the full future implications of that. They just don't have the experience there and their education has been fully funded until now if in the state system.

Surely steering children into a situation of big debt at that age isn't OK?

ZenNudist · 24/09/2023 11:16

As someone whose dc won't get full loans I think the system is reasonable. I don't think the children of the well off should get as much as those of the less fortunate.

Its all very well saying its a loan but if the borrower doesn't ever earn enough it gets written off eventually. The government bear that cost.

Like it or not kids are dependent until 21 now. It's never really been any different. My parents supported me through uni when grants still existed and there were no fees to pay.

gogomoto · 24/09/2023 11:19

Because the government (aka us) would be lending money to someone who uses the money for luxuries because parents are giving money. You can argue about thresholds but my kids certainly didn't need anything more than the minimum (combined income £80k), and we didn't earn that much then either when they were younger, but I set aside £50 a child a month for university from birth.

There's no magic money tree. If you lend (essentially give as many never pay back) money we are funding it.

gogomoto · 24/09/2023 11:24

I've had 2 kids and one sdc go through higher education, all at the same time for 2 years! I'm fully aware of the costs but it's called planning ahead

Comefromaway · 24/09/2023 11:36

It’s wonderful that you are supportive and are able to plan ahead.

I just feel sorry for all those kids whose parents hsvnt planned ahead, for one of several reasons eg

ignorance of the system/they had no idea their child would even contemplate Uni because they are from an area of low participation

many years of low income/bring a single parent so not able to build up savings but only recently they have gained a higher household income or recently remarried

they don’t agree with their child going to uni, heck they barely even tolerated them stopping in at 6th form.

etc etc

43ontherocksporfavor · 24/09/2023 14:27

@gogomoto we didn’t know we’d have to pay when our children were born. Lots of people don’t t realise. When I had the opportunity to go, there were grants.

43ontherocksporfavor · 24/09/2023 14:31

Top post @Zwicky !

43ontherocksporfavor · 24/09/2023 14:32

Lots of unis are now switching to the semester model so holidays at Christmas and Easter are much shorter so no real chance to get a holiday job.

TizerorFizz · 24/09/2023 14:50

@43ontherocksporfavor All those former grants were means tested. Not all parents paid £0. Many contributed. Therefore, I’m sorry, but it’s complete ignorance not to know this or even engage in the subject of student loans that have been with us since 1998 in their present form. That is 25 years!

DC with a very low parental income do well. Bursaries from unis too. The worst off are usually the middle earners with several DC. When people say “the government pays” its actually the tax payer. Many students (used to be 50%) don’t repay the loan. Now the repayment period is being extended so those paying the “graduate tax” pay back more. If anyone is interested, Martin Lewis of MSE does the best guide on student finance.

The loan must be based on something! With 45% of Dc now going to uni as compared to 10% in the 70/80s, it’s inevitable there must be a way of calculating what a student can borrow snd what parents contribute. If parents pay less, or nothing, maybe be close unis and go back 50 years to a more elite group of students? Or parents plan and don’t feign ignorance.

Topseyt123 · 24/09/2023 14:55

gogomoto · 24/09/2023 11:24

I've had 2 kids and one sdc go through higher education, all at the same time for 2 years! I'm fully aware of the costs but it's called planning ahead

We know about planning ahead thanks. That doesn't mean that throughout our adult lives we always had all the necessary money to put aside. For many, many reasons.

43ontherocksporfavor · 24/09/2023 14:55

Well pardon me for not thinking about uni when I’ve just had a baby. At that stage in our lives we had no extra money TO save!!!

Comefromaway · 24/09/2023 15:05

Back when I had my children most kids from my area left school at 16 although a lucky few like me might have stopped on til 18.

I was one of only about 10-12 students from my high school year to go to uni.

My contemporaries now have children of uni age. The system might have been around for years but these parents have never been aware. It’s kids like theirs from areas like this we need to encourage.

Topseyt123 · 24/09/2023 15:20

43ontherocksporfavor · 24/09/2023 14:55

Well pardon me for not thinking about uni when I’ve just had a baby. At that stage in our lives we had no extra money TO save!!!

Exactly, and I rather doubt that many of those making all of these ridiculous and smug comments actually did either. I tend not to believe them to be honest.

I've seen people on here claim that they budgeted for every school or family expense, big or small, right from before even trying for a baby. No, they didn't. You just can't unless you are pretty wealthy already and money is no object. There do seem to be a number of on here in that position if their posts are to be believed, and they just have no clue about life in general for the rest of us.

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