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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think there is a sub-class of people in our society

342 replies

bluewanda · 21/09/2023 21:27

Baby boy died in 'filthy' home with 'traces of cocaine in his system'

https://mol.im/a/12545263

What the hell is wrong with these people. How the fuck can they subject an innocent baby to such a horrific life?! These children should be removed at birth because they don’t stand a chance. It is so utterly depressing.

Baby boy died in 'filthy' home with 'traces of cocaine in his system'

Little Grant John Storey-Delaney died while in his baby bouncer at his Rochdale home. He was found 'turning grey' by his mother Sophie Riley with a blanket over his face

https://mol.im/a/12545263

OP posts:
MyHornCanPierceTheSky · 21/09/2023 22:54

So all the 'that's so mean! How can you call them names?'
What do you think of people who significantly neglect a baby, leave him surrounded in shit, don't give him a bed, don't notice he's fucking dying?!! Your sympathy is for that scum and focusing on the names they're being called?

Pollyputhekettleon · 21/09/2023 22:54

Blinky21 · 21/09/2023 22:49

You are seriously labelling all people who may be vulnerable, have had chaotic lives or other crimiogenic needs as a sub class. That's really horrible

I probably will regret asking this but what on earth is a criminogenic need?

bombastix · 21/09/2023 22:54

It comforts us to imagine that it's recent. That it's one generation. Actually it's probably like three or four.

If you ever looked at the background to Baby P and his murder then violence, sexual abuse and drug problems went back decades in his relatives, the people that lived in the home, and the evidence that there was special needs in the mother. The consequences are obvious.

No one wants to talk about this. Because it cuts against the idea you can get out of it by going to school. Actually the chances are if you get to school from one of these families then you will already have been traumatised.

Behind the deaths of small children like this are bigger families fucked up for decades.

Pollyputhekettleon · 21/09/2023 22:55

MyHornCanPierceTheSky · 21/09/2023 22:47

So you're advocating sterilisation then? If they cannot EVER safely care for a child?

No, why?

Fallingthroughclouds · 21/09/2023 22:55

Pollyputhekettleon · 21/09/2023 22:27

Child abuse correlates with socioeconomic class.

Ah so that explains all the child abuse going on in private, public and boarding schools.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 21/09/2023 22:56

Peachee · 21/09/2023 22:43

The point of it is.. what kind of ‘human’ takes action to put cocaine in defenceless child’s body.. the point is.. that person(s) had a choice! Social demographics, the past and the sad state of affairs that lead to it don’t come into it.. it is an adults.. a parents responsibility to keep their child is safe. They went beyond neglect. This is the result of an action with intent.
Its just horrendous.

Read that article before commenting.

"The inquest was told the most likely way cocaine and cannabis had entered Grant's body was through 'contamination' - for example, if his food was prepared on a surface that had previously touched the drugs."

Grant was not dosed with drugs. The place was filthy, cats and baby alike neglected, but he wasn't dosed with drugs.

MyHornCanPierceTheSky · 21/09/2023 22:56

Pollyputhekettleon · 21/09/2023 22:54

I probably will regret asking this but what on earth is a criminogenic need?

"It's not their fault, it's everyone elses'?

YeOldeGreyhound · 21/09/2023 22:58

Blackbyrd · 21/09/2023 22:52

We need to seriously reconsider the wisdom of paying addicts benefits in cash. All they do is immediately go and score, caring nothing for anyone or anything else. A childless single person on UC over 35 with the "disability" element and the lowest rates of PIP is getting well over £1100 pcm cash in hand. Housing costs and Council Tax are also generally paid in full and there's plenty of free food for the taking

You can't say anyone on UC and PIP can do as they will with their money, but addicts must be restricted. Not all addicts are known. I have had issues with alcohol in the past... but I was not known to any services.

Pollyputhekettleon · 21/09/2023 22:58

paintityellow · 21/09/2023 22:52

There are definitely some parents who should not be allowed leave hospitals with their new babies. And those babies should be put up for adoption, not passed around from foster home to foster home while their parents sort out their lives. The pendulum has swung too far and 'rights' are being accorded to people who are simply not capable of providing a safe and stable environment for their children. The fact that they might eventually pull themselves together is not a good reason to leave their children living in limbo, not knowing where they belong, being pulled between foster and natural parents for years. The rights of the children to a safe and secure home and parents who can care for them should come first.

There wouldn't be anywhere near enough adoptive parents to do that at the scale it would need to be done.

trythisforsize · 21/09/2023 22:58

I imagine that poor baby wasn't the victim of one set of parents, but the product of 3 or 4 generations of abuse and neglect, each generation having fewer parenting and social skills than the one before. They are practically living on the outside of society now. So left behind that they haven't got a hope in hell of catching up without major intervention and the chain being broken.

Instead it continues to perpetuate.

It's grim as.

Lolasgame · 21/09/2023 22:58

Fallingthroughclouds · 21/09/2023 21:59

So the sub class are people on benefits? Please don't lump people together like this. There are plenty of people who need to claim benefits who don't neglect their children and there are many people who are high earners who abuse. Your comments are really prejudiced.

She’s probably a Tory Daily mail reader 🙄

Flickersy · 21/09/2023 22:59

The poor little boy everyone on here is wailing and rending their clothes over would grow up to be one of these "sub human" people you all hate.

So given your wish for them all to be sterilised and wiped out, can you tell me why you consider this such a tragedy? I'm not being goady - there's a tonne of cognitive dissonance and lack of real understanding on this thread, not to mention the horrific othering of Them as though they're a different species which We could never be.

The truth is that any one of us or any one of our children could lose jobs, fall victim to addiction, to a violent relationship etc. Most of us on this thread will have been lucky in that we had stable homes, parents who were invested in us, and who were in turn lucky enough not to have serious mental health issues or addictions.

Families and people like those in the story don't have that. They will have been exposed to drug and alcohol abuse, physical abuse from a young age. Possibly a complete lack of schooling. No support network to turn to, and frankly no idea that could even be a possibility. What chance does a child have growing up in that environment? And when that child grows up and has a child of its own, why would you expect their entire history to magically disappear and them to turn into a stable, switched on parent?

The only way to stop this is to break the cycle by seriously ramping up mental health and addiction services, funding social services properly etc.

Pollyputhekettleon · 21/09/2023 22:59

ConsuelaHammock · 21/09/2023 22:53

But when the crap parents are breeding faster than the good parents we really will have a problem! What happens then ?

Welcome to 2023! The answer is in front of you.

Pollyputhekettleon · 21/09/2023 23:00

Fallingthroughclouds · 21/09/2023 22:55

Ah so that explains all the child abuse going on in private, public and boarding schools.

What I said is true. Look it up.

Goodornot · 21/09/2023 23:00

Hayliebells · 21/09/2023 22:46

How about we blame the government who have made those professionals' jobs so difficult, that they're now almost impossible? It's easy to blame the people on the ground, but they're the ones who actually care, who are trying to do something, with no time, resources, necessary support services, adequate staffing etc, and often at great personal expense. The government don't care. If they did, it wouldn't have got to this on their watch. Elect some people who actually care.

Baby P died under a Labour government in 2007.

The enquiry revealed multiple failings on the part of the authorities. The resulting investigations revealed that over an eight-month period he had been seen 60 times by social workers from Haringey council, doctors and police.

Labour had been in power for 10 years at that point.

Victoria Climbie also died under a Labour government in 2000. Again the authorities were heavily criticised.

Sorry to disappoint but the Tory govt isnt responsible for absolutely everything.

HopefulElle · 21/09/2023 23:01

Absolutely heartbreaking. I know it’s irrelevant, really, but stories like this make my own infertility so much harder to bear. What a life my husband and I would have given this boy, and what a horrific life, and death, he had instead.

JMSA · 21/09/2023 23:02

Definitely a sub class. I can't bring myself to read the story, but I wish certain people could be sterilised.

OneNameTwoNameThreeName · 21/09/2023 23:03

You say you feel terrible for the poor little baby (and children like him) who didn’t even have a chance. Me too. But at what point do you feel he would have had a chance and is thus fully responsible with zero excuses to be made for what happens in the next generation?

If a baby born to addict parents, neglected from birth, likely with predisposition to mental health problems, possibly a low IQ. Somehow survives the abuse, the parents who don’t give a shit if they go to school or not or how and with whom they spend their free time, exposed to alcohol and drugs in pre teens, no role models in life (yes perhaps teachers/people on tv etc, but not anyone ‘like them’ and in their world. Abusive relationships modelled left right and centre. This kid makes it to 18. Somehow. Fair chance has exactly zero GCSEs. Drinks. Possibly drugs. May already have kids. Likely in very unhealthy relationship. Friends all from similarly chaotic circumstances with similarly chaotic current lives…

So at what point did the poor baby who never had a chance become despicable scum that you feel is accountable for not just pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, getting a job, being a productive member of society, stop drinking/drugs (that they may have been addicted to since literal childhood), knowing not to expose themselves/their kids/their partner to alcohol/drugs/abusive relationships, etc etc?

MyHornCanPierceTheSky · 21/09/2023 23:05

The truth is that any one of us or any one of our children could lose jobs, fall victim to addiction, to a violent relationship etc. Most of us on this thread will have been lucky in that we had stable homes, parents who were invested in us, and who were in turn lucky enough not to have serious mental health issues or addictions.
@Flickersy I'd like to think the majority of mnetters wouldn't kill their child.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 21/09/2023 23:05

Blackbyrd · 21/09/2023 22:52

We need to seriously reconsider the wisdom of paying addicts benefits in cash. All they do is immediately go and score, caring nothing for anyone or anything else. A childless single person on UC over 35 with the "disability" element and the lowest rates of PIP is getting well over £1100 pcm cash in hand. Housing costs and Council Tax are also generally paid in full and there's plenty of free food for the taking

TBH, if I was disabled and on benefits in this country, I'd probably turn to street drugs to block out that misery as well. Being on benefits was utterly miserable 15 years ago and UC has been brought in since then to make it even worse.

If you take away cash benefits and replace them with food stamps, how does the claimant replace the vacuum cleaner or go to the launderette? There's practical reasons for giving claimants money.

Grant's mother wasn't fit to parent for reasons that will go deeper than her drug use. Drug use is a symptom of problems as well as a problem in itself. Giving her food stamps wouldn't have fixed that.

Fallingthroughclouds · 21/09/2023 23:05

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Flickersy · 21/09/2023 23:07

MyHornCanPierceTheSky · 21/09/2023 23:05

The truth is that any one of us or any one of our children could lose jobs, fall victim to addiction, to a violent relationship etc. Most of us on this thread will have been lucky in that we had stable homes, parents who were invested in us, and who were in turn lucky enough not to have serious mental health issues or addictions.
@Flickersy I'd like to think the majority of mnetters wouldn't kill their child.

You can like to think whatever you want.

The facts of the matter, however, are that addiction, abuse, trauma and mental illness will really warp a person's idea of right and wrong.

paintityellow · 21/09/2023 23:07

HopefulElle · 21/09/2023 23:01

Absolutely heartbreaking. I know it’s irrelevant, really, but stories like this make my own infertility so much harder to bear. What a life my husband and I would have given this boy, and what a horrific life, and death, he had instead.

I think it's very relevant. There are so many people out there dying to adopt and who would welcome a baby into their home with open arms. Instead we send so many new babies to filthy, awful homes to be cared for by inadequate, abusive or neglectful parents until they either die, as in this and so many other tragic cases, or grow up to repeat the behaviour they have learnt from their negligent parents, carrying it forward to another generation.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 21/09/2023 23:08

Pollyputhekettleon · 21/09/2023 23:00

What I said is true. Look it up.

Rich people abuse children. Remember Saville and Harris? Gary Glitter? Rich people are just better at covering it up.

Flickersy · 21/09/2023 23:08

OneNameTwoNameThreeName · 21/09/2023 23:03

You say you feel terrible for the poor little baby (and children like him) who didn’t even have a chance. Me too. But at what point do you feel he would have had a chance and is thus fully responsible with zero excuses to be made for what happens in the next generation?

If a baby born to addict parents, neglected from birth, likely with predisposition to mental health problems, possibly a low IQ. Somehow survives the abuse, the parents who don’t give a shit if they go to school or not or how and with whom they spend their free time, exposed to alcohol and drugs in pre teens, no role models in life (yes perhaps teachers/people on tv etc, but not anyone ‘like them’ and in their world. Abusive relationships modelled left right and centre. This kid makes it to 18. Somehow. Fair chance has exactly zero GCSEs. Drinks. Possibly drugs. May already have kids. Likely in very unhealthy relationship. Friends all from similarly chaotic circumstances with similarly chaotic current lives…

So at what point did the poor baby who never had a chance become despicable scum that you feel is accountable for not just pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, getting a job, being a productive member of society, stop drinking/drugs (that they may have been addicted to since literal childhood), knowing not to expose themselves/their kids/their partner to alcohol/drugs/abusive relationships, etc etc?

Edited

I suspect for posters on here it's probably in the teenage years, when they stop being cute.

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