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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think there is a sub-class of people in our society

342 replies

bluewanda · 21/09/2023 21:27

Baby boy died in 'filthy' home with 'traces of cocaine in his system'

https://mol.im/a/12545263

What the hell is wrong with these people. How the fuck can they subject an innocent baby to such a horrific life?! These children should be removed at birth because they don’t stand a chance. It is so utterly depressing.

Baby boy died in 'filthy' home with 'traces of cocaine in his system'

Little Grant John Storey-Delaney died while in his baby bouncer at his Rochdale home. He was found 'turning grey' by his mother Sophie Riley with a blanket over his face

https://mol.im/a/12545263

OP posts:
SequentialAnalyst · 22/09/2023 22:18

You didn't get to choose your school. Neither did they. Care to hazard a guess at the OFSTED ratings of the schools those people in deprived areas went to?

bluewanda · 22/09/2023 22:21

Have some compassion.

Have some compassion for who - the parents whose “baby boy died in 'filthy' home with 'traces of cocaine in his system’”?!

Are you actually serious?!

The only person I have compassion for in this situation is that poor little baby, who should have been removed at birth.

I actually find your post extremely offensive TBH.

OP posts:
bluewanda · 22/09/2023 22:23

SequentialAnalyst · 22/09/2023 22:18

You didn't get to choose your school. Neither did they. Care to hazard a guess at the OFSTED ratings of the schools those people in deprived areas went to?

Lol - are you actually bringing OFSTED ratings into this? I think I’ve reached peak Mumsnet TBH. What a crock of shit.

OP posts:
MyHornCanPierceTheSky · 22/09/2023 22:26

Exactly @bluewanda I'm confused by some, so the parents were born to behave like this so it's not their fault, it's everyone else.
You can't expect anything else. But... also to remove the child at birth would be mean and judgemental, how dare you snobs'?

BakedTattie · 22/09/2023 22:30

nrtft.

you are right.

bluewanda · 22/09/2023 22:34

MyHornCanPierceTheSky · 22/09/2023 22:26

Exactly @bluewanda I'm confused by some, so the parents were born to behave like this so it's not their fault, it's everyone else.
You can't expect anything else. But... also to remove the child at birth would be mean and judgemental, how dare you snobs'?

Well, according to one poster, anyone who attends a school with an OFSTED rating of less than outstanding is already doomed to a life behind bars. God help us.

Edited to add: I can only assume that anyone holding those views had a ridiculously privileged upbringing and no grasp whatsoever of the real world!

OP posts:
SequentialAnalyst · 22/09/2023 22:36

OP, I have compassion for all involved in this sad story. So often, troubled parents are reluctant to engage with Social Services, because like all parents, they don't want their children taken away from them.

Read the Relationship boards, where abusive Ex's sometimes threaten to report the MNer posting to Social Services, and other posters try to offer reassurance.

Things are much more complex and nuanced that you seem to imagine. Also recent history, by which I mean within my lifetime, continues to cast its shadow on the present day.

I suspect you are young, and think 50 years ago is a long time. I am 71.

If you want to understand where I'm coming from, look into the economic history of Co. Duram, where I have lived for 53 years. And look into the works of Adam Smith - there is a good podcast of a biography on him on BBC Sounds. Just search for "Adam Smith."
BrewBrew

bluewanda · 22/09/2023 22:39

Thanks @SequentialAnalyst but I cannot feel compassion for anyone who subjected a tiny baby to what that poor little one went through. Like I say, the only person I feel any compassion for is that defenseless, innocent little child. The others can rot in hell.

OP posts:
SequentialAnalyst · 22/09/2023 22:40

One last thing: here's one of the reasons why people in the NE are leery of Social Services. The title is very misleading - do read it. Parents went through hell.
Cleveland child abuse scandal - Wikipedia

Cleveland child abuse scandal - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_child_abuse_scandal

TheGhostofLoganRoy · 22/09/2023 22:41

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SequentialAnalyst · 22/09/2023 22:42

@bluewanda I'm sorry to hear that you cannot find compassion for the parents, OP. I hope time will teach you to see things differently.

bluewanda · 22/09/2023 22:46

SequentialAnalyst · 22/09/2023 22:42

@bluewanda I'm sorry to hear that you cannot find compassion for the parents, OP. I hope time will teach you to see things differently.

Edited

And I’m sorry (and quite appalled) that you haven’t expressed any compassion for that tiny defenseless baby. I hope time teaches you to get your priorities right (but I suspect it won’t).

Edited to add that I don’t give a shit if abusive or neglectful parents “don’t want” their kids taken away from them. The children’s rights should ALWAYS come first.

OP posts:
straightalk · 22/09/2023 22:51

Yes, there is a scum sub class of people lacking basic humanity and unable to take basic responsibility for their lives. I have no doubt linked to both low IQ and dependancy problems.

Poverty is no excuse. Horrible childhoods are no excuse. Or else half of the world's population would mistreat or neglect children. They don't. They do their very best for their children with what they have, financially and emotionally.

It is not a matter of social class, it is a matter of human class. Any normal decent human being would instinctively not mistreat a helpless child. You don't need "lessons" to learn that. If you do, you should not be having children.

It is horrendous that we as a society worry that we might be viewed as lacking compassion if we blame the parents. We should be allowed to express anger and outrage and say it like it is. A civilised society that allows babies to die for fear of depriving these parents of their human right to procreate.

We cannot solve the problem by spending more money or creating a vast workforce of social workers so these parents can effectively continue to have children; but outsource the proper care of them by being policed. Handouts and help will make no difference - it is an enabler.

Nothing short of forced contraception or sterilisation will make them stop.

SequentialAnalyst · 22/09/2023 23:14

I clearly said, in an earlier post, that I felt compassion for all involved, and I meant it.

Lolasgame · 22/09/2023 23:15

The people who are spouting off about sterilisation are probably the same people, would have shoved the kids with Down syndrome and other unfortunate congenital defects into institutions for the rest of their poor lives. Out of sight out of mind cause they’re just a drain on society eh.

Pollyputhekettleon · 22/09/2023 23:18

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SequentialAnalyst · 22/09/2023 23:24

OP, for all you know, these parents may have grown up in very similar family circumstances to the one they have created themselves since getting together.

Do you want to blame the 2 parents of the child in question, or maybe the 4 grandparents of the child in question should be blamed as well?

SequentialAnalyst · 22/09/2023 23:26

ie the parents of the mother, and the parents of the father, and the parents of the child?

TheGhostofLoganRoy · 22/09/2023 23:48

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Pollyputhekettleon · 22/09/2023 23:52

@TheGhostofLoganRoy I won't be responding to you.

TheGhostofLoganRoy · 22/09/2023 23:59

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Mountaineer0009 · 23/09/2023 00:15

for some of the specific topics people are saying has anyone actually researched their history to see the topics go back even as far a plato, and in modern times america got there before germany did etc

TheGhostofLoganRoy · 23/09/2023 00:56

One of the subjects of my joint honours BSc was in biology (with a focus on genetics), and my first MSc was in anthropology of oppression, and my second MSc was in social policy and mental health care. One of the things that's most crucial to understand when studying any kind of science - and this is why I don't believe that Polly has ever studied genetics - is that science is never neutral, and is always prone to political and other forms of bias. Actual scientists, even science students, are taught from day one of the dangers of applying scientific research to ideology.

Which is to say, all the existing body of research into genetic traits, epigenetics, concepts such as "is there a gene for criminality", nature vs nurture; all this research is very much in its infancy, and has limited application to politics or real world social policy.

Genetics and other concepts from the biological sciences have been abused all throughout modern scientific history to oppress people. For example, there was a very famous case in the 1800s where a scientist illegally collected hundreds of skulls and measured them, and provided "scientific proof" that black people had smaller crania than white people, and were therefore scientifically less intelligent and more brutish. During slavery, there was a great deal of "scientific research" done with the intention of providing scientific proof that black people are inherently inferior and thus need to be controlled by white people: science with a clear agenda to support and justify slavery.

in my first term as an undergrad, my tutor assigned the book called 'The Bell Curve.' This is a non-peer reviewed "scientific" work exploring the alleged link between race and intelligence, which was extremely controversial and widely accused of being racist. My tutor taught this book in the context of how both biology and anthropology have historically been used to justify oppression of minorities. Yet it was a published "science" book and to a lot of people, that makes it the Gospel.

(I actually wrote my MSc thesis on how scientific research has historically been used to justify oppression of women - think things like "hysteria", wandering wombs, etc. Mumsnet tends to be very pro-feminist, and I wonder how different the response would be if posters were using "science" to demonise women, rather than demonising people from low socioeconomic backgrounds.)

The research on the nature versus nurture debate is still in infancy, anyone confidently stating that everything is genetic, that there's a gene for being a child abuser, that babies born to abusive parents are doomed even if they're removed from their abusive homes in infancy and adopted by loving families because they've already inherited the child abuser gene - I'm sorry but there just is no substantial body of peer-reviewed evidence to be able to state any of that as fact, and anyone claiming otherwise either has an agenda, or has never taken a genetics class. Anyone with even a small amount of genetic knowledge knows that genetics is highly complex; there are rarely single genes that govern behaviour but many different genes working and influencing each other. The punnet square genetics we all learned at GCSE level is highly over-simplified; the reality is that even something as seemingly straight forward as eye colour is controlled by many different genes.

I've read a few peer-reviewed journal articles on the CDH13 gene (which controls neural connectivity) and the MAOA gene (which is related to dopamine) - these are the two genes proudly declared by the tabloid press to be the "crime genes." In reality, dopamine production is very very complex and is linked with Tourette's Syndrome and schizophrenia, as well as conditions like Parkinsons and tic disorders, to name but a few. That's why L-Dopa was such an astonishing discovery. (And dopamine production is linked with physical injury or disfunction of the basal ganglia; the relationship between genetics and neuroanatomy is not yet all that well understood.)

Even if we had solid evidence that there was a gene for child abuse (which we don't, and no actual geneticist would ever claim otherwise), it's clearly dangerous to base social policy on lab work. One of Polly's posts upthread, for example, suggests that babies born to abusive homes are more likely to grow up to be abusers since they have the gene for child abuse, regardless of whether they are removed from the abusive home in infancy or not. That actually isn't true and there's no statistically evidence to support it - there is no large scale study of babies removed from abusive homes in infancy which studied those babies into adulthood. That's a very worrying application of poorly understood junk science, since it would be very easy to twist that into "well those babies are doomed because they have bad genes anyway, so why bother to remove them from abusive homes" and once again, exploit science as a way to justify oppression.

Please, please go to PubMed or JStor and actually read peer reviewed studies yourself if you're interested, don't just blindly believe everything you read online.

You can perhaps start here:

oakleaffy · 23/09/2023 07:31

TheGhostofLoganRoy · 22/09/2023 18:34

I grew up in an environment that is exactly like this, one most MNers would consider "subclass."

I have a high IQ, fought like crazy for the right to go to school (it took until I was 23 to be allowed to sit GCSEs), went to university and then post-graduate school, and now have a decent job. No one would ever guess my background from looking at me.

But the damage and the ongoing damage is immense, and I deal with the stigma and need to keep secrets every single day. It's just suffocating and people think if you're from that kind of background, that you're a non-human. What happened to this baby is a horrific tragedy but he's only getting sympathy because he's a baby. If he'd grown up to be a mouthy traumatised 12-year-old skipping school and hanging around parks drinking, how much sympathy would there be for him then?

Well done for having the nous and determination to free yourself from a far from ideal childhood.

Children who had loving, safe and stable childhoods are at a massive advantage.

It sets them up for life- Gives such a secure foundation, compared to a child who has suffered loss and abuse at an early age.

It’s a lottery as to what family one is born into.

Good point regarding this infant. Had he been a teen, involved in petty theft, County lines, there would be zero sympathy for him by the world generally.

Ponoka7 · 23/09/2023 14:46

bluewanda · 22/09/2023 22:03

You can talk about plans and thresholds all you like, but ultimately no one is to blame but the parents themselves.

Yes but having mental health issues doesn't make you sub class. People who have children removed aren't sub class. They are usually people who have had a completely chaotic background and then have other factors come into their life. You claim to care about the baby, but you don't, or you'd take on board the issues people have and the need for good child protection. It's on all of us to call for good CP that works. You just want to demonize one group of people and not save the children of those people.