NHS shouldn't have to treat gang members / criminals

[Sellias]

I live in a city with lots of crime (drugs, gangs, knife crime)

Groups of idiots 'beefing' with other groups of idiots over postcodes, selling drugs on eachothers patch and perceived disrespect over the silliest of things leading to murder.

I recently watched a documentary about knife crime and it got me thinking about what a terrible state our NHS is in and how people like cancer patients, people with heart problems etc are waiting far too long for treatment to the extent that they can and do die before their treatment even begins.

..these gang idiots though, if they stab or shoot one another an ambulance is called and they get rushed to hospital. It's all hands on deck to save them. Seriously ill people have their much needed surgery cancelled because this stab victim (who sells drugs and causes endless harm in their community) is deemed to need treatment more than they are.

AIBU to think if they chose to live that way then the NHS should have no obligation to treat them? Let them pay for their own treatment with their ill gotten gains.

Disclaimer, I'm not talking about children who of course we should do all we can to save.

I know these people make up only a small percentage of those requiring urgent treatment but it really pisses me off that they bring it on themselves by living the life they do and then expect the tax payer (having never paid tax in their lives)

No no no!

Would you refuse treatment for anyone in the top tier of wealth as arguably it is inequalities that are the root cause of this?

Then what happens to the money earned? They aren't banking in off shore accounts (unless it's laundered) or buying/making oversees investment. Like it or not every penny spent in the UK helps the UK. Hoarding money does society no good.

@Sparklesocks I absolutely agree. This has never crossed my mind and I work in a hospital. It isn't our place as staff to judge is it really?

@Sellias there are many circumstances to gangs young people may be a product of their own environment, they may have fallen in with the wrong crowd and lots of other reasons. What about a fat person needing a heart OP? Should they be kicked off the waiting list? Should the slimmer people go before them? 🙄

@TussleBack No where in my comment did I say every crime committed is purely a result of ND. Neither did I state it as the sole reason for crimes being committed.

I could quote the stats on rates of ND in the prison population but I don’t have the time nor inclination.

We can’t even provide MH services for children until they finally age out into Adult MH services, which is equally as dire. Its no wonder people fall through the cracks only to end up with social issues which ultimately lead to prison.

So now, in addition to all the other stuff they have to do, you’d like NHS staff to start making ethical judgment calls on who deserves to be treated?

Where are you going to draw the line? Break your leg in a car accident that you caused? Your own fault. Cancer because you smoke? The same.

What a stupid idea. How on earth would a paramedic know if someone was a gang member?

Perhaps the NHS should stop treating anyone who is thick.

Or fat.

Or drinks.

Or smokes.

Or eats red meat.

Or doesn't exercise.

True.

But if you're a teenaged drug dealer earning 100s of £s a day, what's your motivation to work for 6-7 £ an hour. And have to get up in the morning or otherwise attend for your shift. And travel there on a bike or bus. Sometimes in sunshine and often in dark and rain. And have people tell you what to do which a lot of people these days object to.

So that's what people trying to divert teenagers away from crime including drug dealing are offering. And you could have a mentor or a youth justice worker rwho takes you out for McDonald's or go-karting but you'll still get that if you're not actively drug-dealng anymore.

There's not a great deal of competition between hundreds of pounds a day and hundreds of pounds a month which takes considerable more effort.

Morality, earning poorly to eventually have better long-term prospects and just doing the right thing are wonderful ideas, but not always that attractive to teenagers who can earn more in a day that Doctors.

They are the root cause of gang members hurting each other, they are the ultimate scum on and off the street, they are the ones to keep out of the spotlight and never get arrested, the scum who launders money through their businesses, often including trafficked people

Absolutely not.

No-one's access to medical treatment should be based on their lifestyle.

Also
Illegal immigrants
People who don't pay tax
Fat people
Smokers
Drug users
Those who don't exercise
People on benefits
Drivers without seat belts
Bit of a slippery slope before someone chooses a group you belong to....

@TussleBack

But if you're a teenaged drug dealer earning 100s of £s a day, what's your motivation to work for 6-7 £ an hour. And have to get up in the morning or otherwise attend for your shift. And travel there on a bike or bus. Sometimes in sunshine and often in dark and rain. And have people tell you what to do which a lot of people these days object to.

Have you ever watched the wire? This pretty much was the life of street dealers (those most likely to be shot stabbed). Presumably Top Boy reflects the same - I haven’t watched it.

I think freakonomics showed that the average street drug dealer earns under minimum wage.

So basically anyone who...
Is a gang member.
Plays sport.
Does extreme activities, such as mountaineering.
Smokes / capes.
Drinks alcohol.
Takes illegal drugs.
Drives a car.
Rides a motorbike / bicycle.
Roller skates / ice skates.
A stone plus overweight.
Wears inappropriate footwear and breaks their ankle / leg / neck.
Does D.I.Y, after all those tools can be dangerous.
Live here illegally.

Should either treat themselves or crawl into a corner to die.
Everyone else who lives a saintly, sedentary life, who do nothing more dangerous than put their socks on are welcome to use the NHS facilities.
So about 5% of the population then.
Glad we've solved the problem of how to save the NHS 👍

How on earth would you police this, what about people who get caught up when they aren't actually part of a gang?

Whilst I sympathise with the plight of those waiting a long time for treatment (and of course some of those do die whilst waiting), the police and ambulance crews at the scene of a stabbing cannot become judge, jury and executioner and decide who deserves urgent medical treatment and who doesn't.

Teenage boys dabbling in drugs is very different why? Who do you think they are buying it off

this 'othering' of criminally exploited young people to distance nice MC people who smoke the odd spliff, do coke at a party etc - it ALL the same steam of supply - they're just not the ones getting stabbed on the street.

I think ambulance staff have enough to do without asking someone bleeding to death 'are you a gang member and do you have proof of age.

14 year olds dragged into drug crime are the 18 year olds of tomorrow - I mean it's not a job where you can just hand in your notice.

Every stabbing victim isn't a bloody gang member - even if they are black ffs

People who need life saving treatment should get it. I think it’s incredibly dangerous to start refusing care on aome
moralistic basis. Is it all criminals we don’t treat or some? How do the emergency workers attending know who is a criminal and who isn’t?

it’s not even a workable idea, even without the real ethical issues.

How (and most importantly who) would confirm who’s a gang member and who’s not? I’d love to hear your response on that

@Poontangle

But there is a 50/50 chance they will randomly get the e and the u in the right place. Fuchsia would be a far better word for weeding out the unworthy.

Would you say the same about obese people? Their lifestyle has bought this on so they shouldn’t be treated?

Everyone else who lives a saintly, sedentary life, who do nothing more dangerous than put their socks on are welcome to use the NHS facilities.
Well except for the health risks of a sedentary lifestyle and all those accidents that happen in the home. So they're out too!

The better idea would be to not vote Tory and to support proper funding for the NHS through increased taxes, or better manangement. There are simple solutions to the problems of the NHS that don't involve infringement of basic human rights.

I assume OP that those middle class people who take drugs at parties would also be ineligible for treatment?

If there was no demand, there would be no supply.

Here here!

Sorry meant in support of @mathanxiety

Damn, I never thought of that.
That reduces it to 0.001% of the population then.