NHS shouldn't have to treat gang members / criminals

[Sellias]

I live in a city with lots of crime (drugs, gangs, knife crime)

Groups of idiots 'beefing' with other groups of idiots over postcodes, selling drugs on eachothers patch and perceived disrespect over the silliest of things leading to murder.

I recently watched a documentary about knife crime and it got me thinking about what a terrible state our NHS is in and how people like cancer patients, people with heart problems etc are waiting far too long for treatment to the extent that they can and do die before their treatment even begins.

..these gang idiots though, if they stab or shoot one another an ambulance is called and they get rushed to hospital. It's all hands on deck to save them. Seriously ill people have their much needed surgery cancelled because this stab victim (who sells drugs and causes endless harm in their community) is deemed to need treatment more than they are.

AIBU to think if they chose to live that way then the NHS should have no obligation to treat them? Let them pay for their own treatment with their ill gotten gains.

Disclaimer, I'm not talking about children who of course we should do all we can to save.

I know these people make up only a small percentage of those requiring urgent treatment but it really pisses me off that they bring it on themselves by living the life they do and then expect the tax payer (having never paid tax in their lives)

I found people coming to a&e with minor, treatable at home illnesses way more frustrating then people with critical injuries, regardless how they got them.

How would you know whether they are a gang member?

How do you know whether they turned to that life as the main breadwinner of their household could no longer work because they have cancer?

How do you know whether they have been groomed into this life and see no way out?

I don’t think anyone would dispute that the NHS is struggling and the waiting lists are awful. But I don’t see how refusing to treat criminals would change that. It’s not as if all of the resources for cancer patients in oncology are being channelled solely to trauma patients in A+E.

That’s ridiculous. As a Dr you are obliged to treat accordingly to clinical need and priority. That’s it. You don’t get to decide who is worthy and who is not, that’s a slippery slope. Also, what if one Dr has a different opinion to another as to who is worthy? What if a Dr gets it wrong and that person is innocent? What about things such as life-threatening complication post abortion if abortion is against your personal belief. What if, what if, what if. You can’t play God, or judge, jury and executioner - that’s just not how it works

I'm just thinking out loud.

Obviously I know there's no way a system like that would ever come into play.

The unfairness just irks me that is all.

It's "AIBU to think" not "AIBU to campaign for"

No the nhs should treat all humans equally.
these gang members are still someone’s son/brother/friend.
Poverty and inequality are some of the main contributory factors behind young people turning to gangs/drugs. Child hood ACEs another contributory factor.
Escaping the gang once inside it is near impossible if you want to live. Punishing these people by removing their right to emergency health care is not right. And where’s your age cut off? 16/17/18?

But its an emergency and needs an emergency response - the same as a car accident (even if they are treating the one who was at fault)

YABU. Where does it end?

Should we not treat fat people because they lack self control and did it to themselves?

Should we not treat alcoholics? Smokers? Anyone who has done something to themselves that then requires a fix from someone else?

I am completely against the NHS treating by anything other than clinical need

That's one hell of a slippery slope you'd like us to start on.

Well what if I think politicians are also criminals. So Tony Blair has a heart attack, David Cameron has a stroke, Liz Truss has a kidney stone - whatever, I think they're all just as criminal as someone who sells a bit of cannabis or shoplifts, or 19 year olds "scrapping" over gang related issues who get stabbed. So why not refuse to treat them all and insist they pay for private medical care.

What about the director of a company who uses dodges to get out of paying proper levels of tax? That's pretty criminal in my book.

What about a man who cheats on his wife, leaves his family and doesn't pay towards his kids, leaving them on the poverty line? Pretty criminal.

What about someone who doesn't pick up after their dog? What about someone who plays loud music at 2am? What about people who support Manchester United?

I might not want them added to the list but some people would probably argue they should be... where do you draw lines once you start removing peoples' human rights.

Gosh I dread to think how you would like the NHS to deal with prisoners, folk who have actually been convicted of crimes.
Wheel them to some sort of holding room and wait for them to die?

But they'd be sent home, rightly so, they wouldn't be kept in taking up beds.

Most gang members with injuries don't seek medical treatment unless life threatening because they don't want the police involved so I think it's quite a small number of people we are talking about realistically.

If they are over 18 and A&E is busy, I think others should be prioritised over people who have chosen to be involved with violence, but that means a longer wait, not refusal of treatment because that would be inhumane.

So, poor dealers are bad but middle class ones are fine because they don't attack each other, they just gives the orders to carry that shit out.

wow. so u suggest targeting criminals first. so they don't get care. do u think this will help the waiting lists? as a theatre nurse i can assure u it won't.
next you will want care of the elderly stopped to help waiting list i mean they've lived their
lives right? then let's stop overweight diabetics cos let's face it their illness is self inficted, then let's stop mental health cos they take up so much nhs time and staff and let's face it they are all druggies who have brought it on themselves. then let's not treat kids who have brought accidents and broken bones on themselves i mean they were told not to go on that trampoline right?

you do realise how stupid your suggestion is?

No, they will be booked in, triaged, assessed may receive treatment and have a discharge letter - all costs time and money.
They won’t be just sent straight back out

And who decides this? Paramedics get called to a stabbing, they turn up, and then they have to decide "is this person a victim, or did they "deserve" it? If they deserved it, we'll just hop back into the ambulance and leave them here" Or does everyone get taken to hospital and a lucky dr gets to make that call? If a young man is mugged and stabbed, how will the Drs know that it's not gang related? Are they to decide (guess??) and then just leave them in a room to die?

I mean, I don't actually think you're serious anyway. But there are so many practical problems before you even get to the morality.

You’re one of those ‘bring back hanging’ people aren’t you OP?

Btw, my friends grandson was stabbed. He wasnt in any gang, but was in the wrong place - for a very good reason - at the wrong time. But to a casual observer, or a paramedic ,or you OP, it could have been seen as a gang related stabbing, and as it turned out, the stabber was in a gang. Bit late to say sorry if you have let someone die because you have made assumptions.

Some thinking OP is best not done aloud.

Or... Why don't we fund a decent education and social welfare system to avoid young people getting involved in gangs and crime in the first place? Crazy idea, I know.

Yes I think this is a much less draconian way to put it.

I can see its a unanimous IABU, I will accept that.

My apologies. My view has been coloured by living in the type of environment described in my OP and also having family members health decline terribly in the wait for treatment, leading to death in one case.

As I said, just thinking out loud.

It takes up time though. I was often trawling through the streaming list of very small issues that could be resolved at the pharmacy while resus was full and they needed all hands on deck.