(Covid) To think these recommendations are bonkers?

[NoCharnce]

So the government commission into how to memorialise the Covid pandemic has recommended the government implement “A UK-wide day of reflection should be established and held annually.”

Other recommendations include national memorials (10 sites already identified!), oral histories and museums plus additional funding for local authorities to set up their own memorials.

I can’t be the only one who thinks this is nuts and hope the government ignores the recommendations? I genuinely cannot believe people get paid to produce this crap.

Whilst mask wearing was indeed transient, the longer term impacts of lockdowns are most certainly not transient- missed cancer, cardio diagnosis, loss of education, mental health issues, rise in Gov debt, increase in poverty etc.

Is that all down to lockdown? I don't think so. Most countries had lockdown and for them those things were transient.

@WomblingTree86

"Is that all down to lockdown? I don't think so. Most countries had lockdown and for them those things were transient. "

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Please see links below in my previous posts showing how these things were indeed linked to the lockdowns.

Also other countries have also suffered similar problems though the severity depends on each country.

@1dayatatime

It has absolutely nothing to do with abhorrence of other people but a harsh recognition that there was a horrible choice to be made between saving elderly people's lives in the short run with the cost of a greater loss of life of all age groups in the longer run or not saving elderly people's lives in the short run in order to save a greater of lives in the longer run.

It wasn't just the lives of the elderly. Inside this horrible choice you speak of is a vision where the vulnerable, elderly, and others who didn't even recognise they were at risk simply suffer with the virus and perhaps die as a result. Is that the kind of society and community you wish to live in?

Straight question: do you think that as a result of the lockdowns the rise in undiagnosed cancer deaths, increase in cardiovascular deaths, loss of education, increase in poverty and an all round long term increase in excess deaths of all ages greater than those lost to covid was a price worth paying?

In the country where I live, these things have not occurred to any great degree. We had so many deaths from Covid. That has been such a such terrible loss.

I'm currently living in another country. I disagree that they are all suffering similar problems to the UK.

A quote from your post above:

"You're saying that, for example, shutting down and constraining the lives and education of small children - months seem like years to little kids on account of them not having been alive very long - is preferable to extending the lives for a short while of people who have already lived a very long time? Globally, 75-80 years is a very long time, and the elderly were by far the largest group of "the vulnerable".

We never did this always thought it was a very odd thing to do.

Anecdotally, I was in a situation where I lost my job, and my two young children lost out on education due to Covid. I was also main carer for an elderly cancer patient. At no point did I think the cancer patient’s life would be a regrettable loss in favour of my job/or my children’s education. I just did the very I best I could to keep all things afloat with the resources available. My two children - one has coped ok - the other has a significant speech delay. I don’t know how far that is as a result of Covid restrictions - I do believe he is getting the input now and the chance to develop.

I also don’t think sniping at each other help. We’ve all got our stance, it is interesting to hear it.

Banging on about community then replying with relevance ? when SH tenants are mentioned Salty. My post stands

I’ll say again (can’t remember who to!).

So in a no lockdown situation - you’ve got a huge, huge number of elderly patients/other vulnerable people who are being ‘sacrificed’ so that the healthy can be educated/have economic wealth.

They STILL need a hospital bed. They cannot die in inhumane circumstances or without support. That requires manpower. Where do they go? - hospital, ICU, ambulance. The hospital cannot just leave an elderly person struggling to breathe/in pain alone at home. Therefore they need hospital staff/resources. This pulls away from ALL services. Hospitals can’t provide an adequate level of support for maternity, cancer, emergency care etc etc if they are absolutely overwhelmed with Covid cases.

@WomblingTree86

I'm currently living in another country. I disagree that they are all suffering similar problems to the UK.

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Perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong or perhaps the data has not been released
/ publicised as it has in the UK.

Happy to see the evidence and data either way or is this just based on your perception?

@SaltyOne

In the country where I live, these things have not occurred to any great degree. We had so many deaths from Covid. That has been such a such terrible loss.

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Perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong or perhaps the excess death data has not been released
/ publicised as it has in the UK.

Happy to see the evidence and data either way or is this just based on your perception?

It’s a very survival of the healthy and ‘fittest’ argument. All these arguments are putting the healthy and their rights far above the unhealthy. That’s very wrong in my opinion. And that’s not what medical science seeks to do - thank god.

Yes?

You seem to be inferring that I wanted all old people sacrificed or something?

I was asking you a question.

@WhalePolo

So in a no lockdown situation - you’ve got a huge, huge number of elderly patients/other vulnerable people who are being ‘sacrificed’ so that the healthy can be educated/have economic wealth.

They STILL need a hospital bed. They cannot die in inhumane circumstances or without support. That requires manpower. Where do they go? - hospital, ICU, ambulance

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So to clarify not being sacrificed so that the healthy can be educated / have wealth. But being sacrificed to prevent a greater number of excess deaths across all age groups in the coming years.

Secondly this would have resulted in the situation that we are now facing but seemingly are now accepting:

metro.co.uk/2023/09/25/new-data-shows-that-24-hours-in-ae-isnt-just-a-tv-show-with-huge-wait-times-in-hospitals-19549107/amp/

And while I'm here, today in town I saw a woman walking along the prom - outside in a F9 gale - wearing a mask over her mouth (her nose she left free to inhale the fresh sea air).

That is exactly the kind of thing people mean when they talk about a lack of logic and rationality. Yet according to some, this woman's morals are on a higher level that someone who concluded that such a thing would be pointless.

It's also by no means certain that these frail elderly people would all have died in huge numbers. My mum was mid 70s and has a chronic lung condition. She caught Covid and though felt grotty for a while (as did I when I got it the first time), she was back to normal fairly quickly. She was horrified at lockdowns and what they were doing to society, to her children's livelihoods and her grandchildren's wellbeing. She was scornful of the idea that it was to "protect" her.

But that's just a personal anecdote.

@WhalePolo

"All these arguments are putting the healthy and their rights far above the unhealthy. "

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Not at all, it is more a question of do you save a smaller number of lives in the short term at the cost of a greater number of lives lost in the long run or do you accept the loss of lives de in the short run in order to prevent a greater loss of life in the long run.

I agree it's not a pleasant choice, but that is the harsh reality.

DH is now 73 (so 70 when we first locked down) Has COPD ischemic heart disease and was fucking pissed at being used as a tool to emotionally blackmail others into following Covid rules when no one gives a fuck the rest of the time, while also being treated as part of a homogenous mass.

e,g back when he drove (he gave up driving in Jan 2020 and only used car for short distances) he had a blue badge it ran out and our local council INSISTED on him travelling to another area for a medical They would not have it THEN that he could not drive that far for HEALTH reasons so he went without the badge, yet come March 2020 all this sudden caring about health was all over their fb. This is the kind of hypocrisy many are absolutely sick of

I just read that the number of children persistently missing school is double what it was before the pandemic.

Children and young people (and their parents) were given the impression by the government that education is unimportant.

Or is that just a coincidence?

Have you provided the evidence or data either way showing other countries are in the same boat or is it just your perception that they are?

@WestwardHo1 I know lockdown as such couldnt have happened in the 80s when i was at school cos no internet but if something similar had happened then and they had closed the schools i likely wouldnt have gone back I was badly bullied at school and would have jumped at the chance to get away from that. I wonder how many of those kids have experienced the same

@1dayatatime

I think had we not had restrictions, the results would have been more catastrophic in the short term AND the long term. Because hospitals would have collapsed and it would have been difficult for them to recover. All hospital services would have been impacted (maternity, waiting lists, emergency care, paediatrics) You would have had a nation that was unhealthy, and unable to access basic NHS services. This would have had an even more detrimental impact on education. Schools exist because of the infrastructure that supports that school. An unhealthy infrastructure (adults, parents, staff, catering, facilities) would impact the operation of that school. Children also need access to adequate hospital services - and children could have died as a result of not being able access basic care.

I would imagine that you are seeing - in terms of global population growth - a large dip around Covid times, and now a rise again. If restrictions were THAT detrimental, if we were all now dying as a result of restrictions - that Covid dip would be still steadily declining.

I don't think though that people are saying that there should have been no restrictions.

Personally what I am angry about is the nonsensical illogical aspects of it, and the total over reach of the "authorities" and the state. Remember those children playing in their garden on a sunny day and being ordered inside by a police officer who told them (inaccurately) "1000 people died yesterday", as though that was the children's responsibility and them playing outdoors contributed to it. Golf clubs opening before schools. Swings being tied up. Single people living alone not being "allowed" to get a hug when they needed it. The politicking of Nicola Sturgeon and that idiot Drakeford. Not being "allowed" to buy felt tips and paper in Wales, though being "allowed" to buy copious amounts of booze. Elderly people being isolated in their rooms sometimes for months. Schools remaining shut during the summer of 2020 long after the peak had passed. Why?

Those "look them in the eye" adverts. The adverts which told kids "Don't kill granny". WTF?

I cannot believe there are people who defend this shit.