Page 2 | Should Shopkeepers Be Permitted To Detain Shoplifters

CallumDansTransitVan · 2023-09-13T19:13:13+00:00

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66790189 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66790189]] With regard to the attached video. Is it acceptable for a shopkeeper to either detain potential shoplifters, or stop them leaving with goods they haven't paid for?

Original poster

CallumDansTransitVan · 13/09/2023 21:28

TheGhostofLoganRoy · 13/09/2023 21:19

If a man was caught on video throttling a white woman there would not be a single post on Mumsnet defending him and saying that she asked for it. I'm 10000% certain of it.

Mumsnet is the most racist forum I've ever seen in my entire life.

The threads about George Floyd were a disgrace, people acting like he deserved to be murdered in cold blood.

The threads about Ahmaud Arbery were full of comments implying he might have been guilty (of nothing, since he was not accused of anything) and defending the redneck violent thugs who just wanted to chase down and lynch the first black man they saw.

There was a thread recently over a black woman who was harassed and assaulted by police over an issue with her being suspected of not having swiped in properly on the bus (she had paid), lots of racism, lots of comments indicating that being assaulted is just what you should expect if you don't bend over backwards for police, and some posters sharing personal experience of getting away with not paying (as white people) or seeing white people not challenged for not paying, and then other posters attacking them.

The threads about the BLM protests in 2020 were full of outraged screaming about thugs, from the same posters who were out in droves playing the "I don't agree with them but I support their right to free speech" card in the threads about the white supremacist/Neo Nazi rallies.

but they have chosen a poor figurehead.
No one has chosen her as a "figurehead" ffs. Pointing out that throttling women is not an appropriate response to shoplifting is not making someone a figurehead. Besides the woman in the bus incident had done nothing wrong, yet there was still pages and pages of demonising her.

If this was a white woman the discussion would be completely different. You know it would be.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Firstly if it was a White person it wouldn't of made news, Secondly if it had and the same scenario played out as in the video, we would all be saying well done shopkeeper.Thirdly and most important, I have, the same as lots of others, witnessed white shoplifters being dragged back into shops with their stolen wares in a similar manner.

Trying to claim racism in this case as a get out clause does no good and is disingenuous to genuine cases.

OP posts:

FloweryName · 13/09/2023 21:28

If a man was caught on video throttling a white woman there would not be a single post on Mumsnet defending him and saying that she asked for it. I'm 10000% certain of it.

You are wrong. I would defend that man for trying to protect his livelihood from a white women stealing and for trying to protect himself from a white woman’s violence.

Her actions are relevant, the colour of her skin is not.

Finteq · 13/09/2023 21:29

Nitgel · 13/09/2023 20:23

Police don't bother with shoplifters so this was inevitable

Agree.

Until the Police start taking these crimes seriously its just going to get worse.

This wasn't a big corporation like Asda or Tesco who can just increase their prices.

This is a self employed person. And money they lose affects his family directly.

You can't just stand by and let people walk out with bags full of stuff. And until the Police start stepping up it will just get worse.

Peacendkindness · 13/09/2023 21:33

Anewnamea · 13/09/2023 20:27

Call the police! Take a picture of the person! Even at worst if he did insist on putting his hands on her for £24, he should not have grabbed her neck. That is how you handle a dog surely?? Why can’t you see any alternative to how he treated her?

And no it’s not proportionate force - absolute nonsense. Choking a woman to stop her stealing 24 quid of hair products is not proportionate or necessary.

Edited

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I agree but apparently she had been arrested at the same shop the day before and she was the one arrested after this incident. In his interview he actually shows himself to be remorseful eg no of course I would be outraged if I saw the footage, I regret where I put my hands etc but also that she was allegedly a repeat offender with shop lifting and she was arrested for assaulting him previously

Original poster

CallumDansTransitVan · 13/09/2023 21:44

Finteq · 13/09/2023 21:29

Agree.

Until the Police start taking these crimes seriously its just going to get worse.

This wasn't a big corporation like Asda or Tesco who can just increase their prices.

This is a self employed person. And money they lose affects his family directly.

You can't just stand by and let people walk out with bags full of stuff. And until the Police start stepping up it will just get worse.

Show quote history

Remember those price increases to over theft are not coming out of Asda etc or their shareholders profits. They come out those that shop and pay for their goods in those stores.

OP posts:

Seymour5 · 13/09/2023 22:28

The video wasn’t shown in its entirety. People really need to watch both bits. The woman was challenged by the shopkeeper, she started the physical altercation, he was trying to defend himself, she was hitting him with a basket, a black guy was seen trying to hold her back, but she kept hitting out.

The protest was unfounded, her behaviour was the issue, not her race.

FirstYouGetTheMoney · 13/09/2023 22:50

MidnightOnceMore · 13/09/2023 20:17

Not with violence.

Then how do they stop them leaving?

In my view they should be able to stop them leaving using force if necessary.

CampsieGlamper · 14/09/2023 08:48

What is the ethnic breakdown of

Criminals or perpetrators of crime Per capita
Victims of crime Per capita?

if you do t know please suggest where this information might be found in an unbiased form.

MidnightOnceMore · 14/09/2023 16:37

FirstYouGetTheMoney · 13/09/2023 22:50

Then how do they stop them leaving?

In my view they should be able to stop them leaving using force if necessary.

Show quote history

You can't. Violence in response to property theft is an unacceptable escalation.

If you want your country to be civilised, violence must be minimised not encouraged.

FloweryName · 14/09/2023 16:44

What about violence in response to violence, which is what happened here?

DragonFly98 · 14/09/2023 16:48

Anewnamea · 13/09/2023 20:31

What was almost inevitable that out of all the shoplifters of all demographics it was a black woman who was handled like this. Start showing me scores of videos involving white women shoplifters being treated like this and let’s see if the mood is the same.

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obviously it was inevitable, the shop sold black hair products.

BasicPumpkinSpice · 14/09/2023 16:48

Grabbing someone's neck is disproportionate. People die that way.

It's just stuff. The situation was escalated unnecessarily.

jlpth · 14/09/2023 16:50

BasicPumpkinSpice · 14/09/2023 16:48

Grabbing someone's neck is disproportionate. People die that way.

It's just stuff. The situation was escalated unnecessarily.

The thing is, it isn't just stuff to the shopkeeper. It's his livelihood - mortgage, feed kids, whatever. It's wrong to say that it's just stuff. To the woman, however, it was just stuff. And the additional videos show that it was her who started the violence.

CalistoNoSolo · 14/09/2023 16:52

BasicPumpkinSpice · 14/09/2023 16:48

Grabbing someone's neck is disproportionate. People die that way.

It's just stuff. The situation was escalated unnecessarily.

It's not just stuff it's his livelihood.

Sarvanga38 · 14/09/2023 16:54

Inevitable, and only going to rise as shoplifting (which seems endemic now) increases. From HER disgusting behaviour, I think he was fairly restrained to be honest, and she's probably one in a long line that day/week/month.

Easily avoided by not shoplifting, no sympathy here I'm afraid.

Whataretheodds · 14/09/2023 16:56

He did himself no favours on the interview I saw.

"I didn't hit her though"

OneTC · 14/09/2023 16:56

BasicPumpkinSpice · 14/09/2023 16:48

Grabbing someone's neck is disproportionate. People die that way.

It's just stuff. The situation was escalated unnecessarily.

Our family owns a similar business to the one in question and i don't think people really think about what it's like to have someone come into YOUR place and nick YOUR stuff. It's like someone coming into your house and nicking your TV while your just sitting there.

Original poster

CallumDansTransitVan · 14/09/2023 16:58

BasicPumpkinSpice · 14/09/2023 16:48

Grabbing someone's neck is disproportionate. People die that way.

It's just stuff. The situation was escalated unnecessarily.

The situation looks to have been escalated by the shoplifter. She could of dropped the stolen stock, she could of walked out the shop. She made the decision to behave the way she did. It also looks like the guy has tried to de-escalate it.
https://twitter.com/DVATW/status/1702008059592097966

https://twitter.com/DVATW/status/1702008059592097966

OP posts:

Brefugee · 14/09/2023 17:01

Fightyouforthatpie · 13/09/2023 20:23

I cannot see what he did was unreasonable. He surely can't be expected to just stand there and allow people to remove goods from his shop and take no action?
His response appeared proportionate to the thief - after all, she could have put down the goods she was trying to steal and left calmly, but she choose to try and tough it out.

Half strangling someone who isn't trying to kill you is always disproportionate

CwmYoy · 14/09/2023 17:01

I have zero sympathy for people like this woman who shoplift luxury goods. All she had to do was drop the stuff and walk away.

More sympathy for those desperate for food, obviously.

MidnightOnceMore · 14/09/2023 17:02

FloweryName · 14/09/2023 16:44

What about violence in response to violence, which is what happened here?

I was taught two wrongs don't make a right. Other people were taught an eye for an eye.

OhmygodDont · 14/09/2023 17:02

The problem is the police are useless. Much like a chocolate tea pot.

They won’t come out for most burglary or thefts so of course people are going to start taking it into their own.

We had a mobile stolen, it pinged online to the exact address. The police well can you go knock and ask for it back??!!! Yeah oh I’ll go ask mr thief if he fancies maybe handing it back pretty please.

This women wasn’t some innocent either she was stealing and wasn’t exactly keeping her violent tendencies to herself.

MidnightOnceMore · 14/09/2023 17:05

OneTC · 14/09/2023 16:56

Our family owns a similar business to the one in question and i don't think people really think about what it's like to have someone come into YOUR place and nick YOUR stuff. It's like someone coming into your house and nicking your TV while your just sitting there.

Show quote history

I'm from a shopkeeping family so absolutely do understand (plenty of thefts) but I do not think shopkeepers have the right to use violence.

I've also had my telly nicked in front of me and still don't think I've the right to use violence.

If you're a person who uses violence you think violence is ok, if you're not you don't.

EsmeSusanOgg · 14/09/2023 17:06

This wasn't really a standard shoplifting scenario. This was a dispute over a refused refund. The customer wanted a refund/ exchange the shopkeeper refused, an argument ensued that turned violent. This is not the example to use.

I also think there is never a good excuse for grabbing someone around the neck. But generally, you can use reasonable force to detain someone until the police arrive.

Farmageddon · 14/09/2023 17:08

BasicPumpkinSpice · 14/09/2023 16:48

Grabbing someone's neck is disproportionate. People die that way.

It's just stuff. The situation was escalated unnecessarily.

Yes, I agree. Whatever this woman did - I'm not saying she covered herself with glory - a big man like that putting his hands forcibly around her neck is way out of line.
He could have simply stood in her way, or held her hands and restrained her without applying extra force. No he didn't ask for the situation but he escalated it beyond what was necessary.