To record someone in my home without their consent?

[RunningInChaoticCircles]

This is DS’s social worker who came to my home for a meeting. I had an idea that the meeting was be used for nefarious purposes and I was right.

Got it all on video and put in a complaint as have evidence of what was said and was able to go it for exact words. Told them I recorded it.

Council have said I must delete the recording immediately as social worker did not consent.

I checked and from what I read it is not illegal to record someone in YOUR home without their consent (I certainly wouldn’t do it to anyone else apart from council employees!) and keep it for your own use.

Who’s right and WIBU?

This is hardly the gotcha you think it is. Many people are recorded as part of their work. Pretty much every meeting I attend, with a customer or internal, is recorded (and video-ed). It's absolutely standard in many workplaces.

Why make something up? "Yes, the conversation was recorded and no, I will not be deleting it." works fine.

I can't see how it can be illegal, nor require permission from the person being recorded, if that is the case how come it is acceptable and used in evidence when people film carers in the homes of their relatives and discover abuse or theft? What about CCTV in homes that capture burglars? What about dash cam footage of driving or accidents?

What about all the footage families take in nursing homes or at home when they suspect their loved ones are being mistreated or stolen from. Those videos, which are often serectly taped over a period of weeks, are used to prosecute the perpetrators.

I guess if they are in the right, they can take you to court and have a judge confirm that you did something illegal.

I've read all of your posts, I'm still unclear on what the nefarious purposes are?

As an ex teacher I have been recorded without my consent and I absolutely hated it and feel for anyone in a similar position.

I do think if you feel at threat then you can record it but in this situation I’m not sure if it was needed.

Even phone conversations need to give you a warning that you may be recorded.

Could you not just have asked that it was put in writing or if she was happy to be recorded?

I have done this a couple of times (not with SS) because I think that some people would not say certain things and be much more professional if they know you want the evidence to take it further.

I do think you were wrong to record her.
That being said I feel your pain and know that you did it out of desperation.

I wouldn't be a social worker- it's dealing at the tough end with the worst problems, often the most difficult or vulnerable families, no resources to support families and being expected to find a solution.

However, I attend meetings regularly where social workers tell lies or evade the truth. For example : a child who never attends school- more than 2 years complete non-attendance. Is 13 yo. Social worker and I met parent and child at home. Followed up by child in need conference where social worker stated 'mum has not been escorting child to school as agreed in meeting at home.'
Mum never agreed to do that (it is impossible for her to do it as she has 3 primary school aged children). Mum said she did not agree to do it and was never asked. Social worker says she has it written in her notes. I said 'It is not in the minutes of the meeting and I have no recollection or notes of Mrs X being asked to or agreeing to do so'. Chair asks SW directly 'Did you ask Mrs X to escort child to school every morning at that meeting'. SW replies 'Yes and she agreed to do so'. Not true but her word was accepted despite it not being in the minutes of the meeting. Mrs X rightly furious.
A recording of the meeting would have resolved that.

Most social work, apart from protection-level work, is ineffective for a range of complex reasons.

If there is any evidence of someone doing harm or using threatening behaviour, then I am absolutely all for secretly recording someone.

I believe there were calls for CCTV to be put up to catch Lucy Letby but it was ignored/dismissed.

But I don’t think that was the case here.

As social workers I imagine that you often deal with people who are drunk, on drugs or have special needs and may not understand or remember the contents of meetings. I'd imagine that it's ethical to have video record because those sorts of groups can't advocate for themselves when problems or misunderstandings arise.
Most sw are doing a good job but how do you prove that a sw is lying or their notes are inaccurate because in their overworked state, they've mixed you up with someone else?
On the flip side, I imagine that sw also face false allegations too and video would help waste less time on malicious complaints.

I strongly disagree with covertly recording people unless there is a question that they're doing serious harm.

I'm a nurse and have a close friend and colleague who can't be on any promotional material for the trust. Her place of work is blanked out on the email system. Lots of other various things out in place to try and conceal her exact whereabouts from getting out. This is due to having to move hundreds of miles away, secretly with the help of women's aid, to escape her ex husband. Her life and potentially that of her child would be in danger if it got out what area she was working/living in. She worries daily about service users naming her on social media (she's a community psychiatric nurse and some service users do voice their opinions on social media, due to being unhappy with not getting what they want or getting what they don't want, and they publish staff names) or recording her and uploading content.

I requested the SW investigate a potential safeguarding issue as the SEN education team at the council has been harassing me for months to get DS to agree to visit a college which has clearly said he did not want to go to. They even tried to get a court order to force me to make him (an adult) attend which was denied. Despite this they persisted. I felt this was harassment of DS as he has been upset about potentially being forced to go there. The other students are higher needs with more learning severe disabilities and there is no mental health support or course he wants to study there, DS’s main need is his mental health, he can get about on his own, has no personal care needs and has already exceeded the academic levels they start at and certainly has the potential to gain GCSEs with the right support which they do not offer.

SW arranged this visit in response to my complaint. Totally ignored it and in the complaint response I got this morning, they admitted he came to ask DS if he would attend this college. So the visit was under false pretences. He said he’d had meetings with the education team about DS while telling me he couldn’t get involved and which DS and I weren’t invited to, when I had asked for support with it and was trying to imply DS was still without an education as I was not agreeing with the education authority so it was my fault!

May be home schooling might be better?
The law on recording without consent is very complicated in all kinds of different situations. Police routinely have body cams these days. The ICO has guidance on recording at work for example which says covert/secret recording will sometimes be allowed if justified and if sanctioned at a high level in the company eg if someone is stealing gold from the production line and other means to catch them are not possible.

Well done to your DS for thinking on his feet and the two of you for recording. It sounds like such a stressful situation. The would’ve denied everything without your evidence. I hope you find the best placement for your son, soon

I wouldn't mind at all. Because I know I act within the boundaries of professional code of conduct. I would also only be discussing the case as it relates to the person recording. Why would you be concerned about being recorded if you aren't doing anything that is questionable.

English law is quite whiffly about the admissibility of evidence. Basically it's up to the judge. Unlawfully obtained evidence is often used in courts. Usually when the police forgot the laws around obtaining it.

So even if the recording were "illegal" (as per councils allegation) it could still be used in court.

Something they may need to be told, if their own lawyers don't know.

Maybe he doesn't want to home school and is allowed to actually make his own choices?

Well done you! 👏

do not delete it….ever

@MaryShelley1818
I'd be totally happy to be recorded without prior knowledge.
My job is very closely connected to social care and I can't think of a situation where I wouldn't be happy to be recorded?
I do a lot of home visits, difficult calls etc

Quite frankly I have no issue being recorded at work, I would see it as for my own protection (proof of innocence). People working in shops for example are recorded all the time. Providing you are acting properly there is nothing to be worried about.

This! Fair play to the OP for thinking to do this.

OP - The council/social worker are likely just annoyed that you have actual evidence to support your complaint and they're now unable to gaslight you.

Do NOT delete it.

This is perfectly legal, DO NOT DELETE it!

The council obviously want the evidence destroyed. Do not do this. It was your home and your legal right to record it without declaring it.

What you should do is get it transcribed into a script, as you can use that in court. Do not send them the recording.

Many charities/organisations who help families with social do advise to covertly record.

It's definitely legal.

Social worker here. Agreed teams meetings isnt the same but my initial point of making sure everything you say is accurate and above board stands. I have no issue about being covertly recorded. In fact it would be to my benefit most of the time.

It is not illegal to have recorded the person. Guidance is that you should obtain consent first. Lack of consent may mean (only may) that you will be denied permission to rely on the recording. Ultimately a judge would decide this. But you have not acted illegally. You do not need to destroy the recording unless ordered to do so by a court. Do not publish the recording or distribute it though.

Many people are recorded in their daily job, I was in my last job, camera pointed directly at me for the whole 8 hours, couldn't even blow my nose without being watched.

In terms of SWs being recorded, if they are acting in accordance with the law and following statutory guidance, why then would they have a problem with having their home visits covertly recorded?

Surely, only a SW who makes up lies for the case notes, which I know is something that happens rather regularly, would be unhappy about it. Are you always honest when writing your case notes @MaryShelley1818 ?

Generally it's ok to make a recording for your own record.

The recording won't be admissible in court

You can type/write up notes as s record of the meeting

If someone refuted the notes then the recording can be used to support the accuracy of the account even by a court. Notes supported by a recording are more believable than the person denying the comments took place

I don't believe they have a right to insist the recording is deleted.