‘Why did you have a baby with him?’

[Iftheydonlygetashifton]

Inspired by the numerous threads on MN where the OP is in a very tough situation with kids and an abusive partner, and the responses run ‘why on Earth did you choose to have children with him? You were with him for 3 years before children’ … etc etc. My thoughts are:

a) the OP isn’t omniscient;
b) many relationships change after having kids. Often having kids exposes men to be man-children. Hence, all the single mums out there and the many fewer single dads. And the mental burden disproportionately borne by women in hetero relationships even if both do paid work FT, etc.
c) Give the OP a break.

YABU - people don’t change substantially after having kids therefore it’s on the OP if they chose a wrong un.
YANBU - people can change after kids, relationships deteriorate, we should lay off a pile-on and give practical advice and moral support.

thanks

I did this.
I married someone who changed enormously after our two children came along. I would not wish on anyone else what my ex husband did to me, we are now divorced.

However in answer to the original question, although I did not guess he would do exactly what he did do, there were signs from the start that he had the potential which I decided to ignore, so that is on me.

YABU

so many the times the OP of such threads (selfish partner etc) admit that they knew their partner was like this but thought it would change after having DC. But nope he still vanishes to play/watch football or other sports several evenings a week and all day Saturday and sleeps in until midday on Sunday

🙄

What is the percentage of men who remain good partners post-pregnancy?
It might be low.
Bearing this in mind, are women willing to forgo having children if they can't find one of these men?

If it's just meant as a put down, to kick a woman when she's down then of course that's not ok. But actually hearing different views and perspectives and asking questions about the backdrop of the situation can be very helpful to other posters.

Maybe it helps another poster who's low in self esteem, insecure to read different thoughts and reflect on their own situation. Or if a women is feeling pressure to have a child, or already has one and her husband doesn't want her to work, or expects her to do everything regarding childcare and housework... threads don't exist in a vacuum. Yes, the practical advice of what the OP needs to do is important. But this is a huge forum and other people will take different things from the range of views expressed.

A lot of time the abuse is a slowly getting worse by the time kids come along the woman’s self esteem is in tatters and she’s utterly beaten down.

sometimes women have more children because hands up how many posters on here have said no to sex with an incredibly controlling abusive husband?
sometimes they are resigned or stay because they know for a fact the courts will enforce contact and their child will be alone with their abusive father, so may as well stay and shield the child as much as possible and sometimes they want another child so go ahead and have more.

it takes a lot of courage to seek help when you know your choices are limited and you are in a very bad situation.

I do think it’s good to ask the question to make others stop and think though. Do not have a child with a shit partner you’re tied to him for life one way or another.

Yep - this is exactly how it happens.

I also don’t think you really know what someone is like until you’ve lived with them day in day out for 2 years.

Lots of women grow up in dysfunctional families and end up vulnerable to abusive men. It's all well and good saying 'the signs were there, why didn't you read them' when you're lucky enough to have been taught to read them. For others, their entire childhoods were about conditioning them to not see the signs, or to think those behaviours are normal.

For many women It's only when their own children are born that they begin to realise how awful their situations are.

But you crack on OP snearing at them. I'm sure it's really helpful for women in abusive situations to come here and see other women judging them.

Well done you. One lesson you haven't learned is empathy though. Not everyone is as strong or clever as you. For some of us it can take years to get to the level of self-confidence and even self- awareness that you achieved in your 20s.

But the question still stands. How is it helpful to ask Why did you have children with him? What could the OP in question say that would satisfy you? We can only live our lives forward, sadly. The kids are there. The important thing is not to have any more and to leave to make things better for the future.

Shaming a woman about her past mistakes and stupidity is unlikely to help achieve that, though it may make the questioner feel superior.

YABU

I’ve lost count of how many threads say about how much their DP cheated, drank, was lazy etc etc before they had a child together and so the obvious question is if you knew all that why did you choose to have a baby with him.

Of course some partners completely change after having children.
It’s very common for some men to start being abusive once their partner has a child or even when they become pregnant.

Of course this is their true personality and they were just hiding the abusive side but a lot of the time there were red flags and the women chose to ignore them.

Too many women think they can change men and think if they have a baby it will force them to become the man that they want, it never does.

The question is not in the least bit helpful in the situation where a poster is looking for help in an abusive or failing relationship. It is only guaranteed to make her feel worse at a time when she is probably already at rock bottom.

The only time when it could be useful might be when the poster has managed to get away from the situation and is either having counselling or is trying to understand how the situation came about.

"I’ve lost count of how many threads say about how much their DP cheated, drank, was lazy etc etc before they had a child together and so the obvious question is if you knew all that why did you choose to have a baby with him."

It may be the "obvious" question, but only an idiot would ask it. Because what answer are they expecting and what do they expect to achieve by asking it? A PP on here has already pointed out that the only way it would be a useful question would be if you were selling time machines.

I started reading Mumsnet in my early 20s and I learned so much - while I agree its not super helpful to an OP who has already had children, I think of the young women like me who may be lurking and learning about human behaviour from these posts.

I think the red flags are usually there from the start of these relationships, and while the OPs either ignored them or didn't have the emotional intelligence to recognise them, they are a lesson in what not to do to those yet to embark down that road.

I think many men 'think' they want a family - but dont really want the domestic aspects that go with that- and certainly not one that requires them to make compromises in their life. So many women on here go on to list a ton of awful stuff they are putting up with but say 'he's a great dad' - it transpires Hes a great dad because he plays with the children very occasionally , gives them the odd meal and has been known to change the odd nappy - no one says you are a great mum if this is all you did . Great dads too can keep up the interaction and tasks for years and years and years, not just for an odd year.a great dad is for life, not just Xmas!!

For me, he couldn't handle me having needs and asking and expecting him to help me out and do things for him - i had literally never asked him for anything before as I was very independent in every way you can be (although I had looked after him And supported him through lots of dramas and life crises) I didn't hold him accountable for anything or expect anything from him

I'm sorry you went through that but this is why people make those comments! Pre baby YOU did ALL the looking after and supporting of him while he did nothing for you. He didn't change his behaviour after you got pregnant. He stayed the same, still expected you to be independent and do things for yourself, continue to run around supporting him but now with a baby.

@AnythingILike but for every case like yours there will be 10 where the signs were there. Esp those where the bloke is basically a lazy fucker rather than out and out abusive.

Thinking about why many women ignore the warning signs is actually a really interesting question, even if just barking it out like an accusation isn't.

DuchessOfSausage
'When you get together with someone, I think there's a tendency to slip into a homemaker role. When you are in the honeymoon phase you might not notice that he isn't really pulling his weight.

When a child comes along, the woman is naturally the main caregiver to the baby, and if on ML will probably be doing a lot of the household chores. When she goes back to work, the household and parenting duties remain hers.'

But it doesn't have to be like this. Women don't have to slip into a homemaker role. This is where it really helps if the woman in the partnership has good earning power and considers her own working life as just as important as her husband's. If you start off with roles of a similar status it really helps to not slip into facilitating his job, running around doing the shopping and cooking the dinner because he's out earning the big bucks. I'm not saying abuse and crap partners never exist in more equal set ups but it sure as hell makes it less likely.

But the trouble is, how often do you see on MN 'oh but I gave up work because he earns so much more than me,' or 'his job is so important, he needs to travel, I've just got to fit in around it,' - it's depressingly often.

It takes thought and effort to try to keep a partnership equal after having kids but it really helps to set out expectations early on. I was quite happy to do more housework etc when on maternity leave; it made sense as I had more time, but I went back to work and damn well made sure things were evenly shared. And that can be tough sometimes because much as some men don't step up and do sod all at home, some women are possessive over the childcare and home stuff- I've also heard women say they refuse to transfer any parental leave to their partner so it can be shared. Or they nit pick and criticise over how dad does things with the baby.

There's never any excuse for abuse. That said, it's everyone's responsibility, men and women, to build positive relationships, not ignoring ref flags.

I know way too many women, and some men (who go on to have children or more with said partner) who have put up with affairs, dodgy online activity, excessive hobbies, poor household skills and general laziness to understand that they will put up with it.

It has nothing to do with why did you go on to have more children with them, it has all to do with standing within societal circles and finance - most predominately the latter.

Those who are the most judgemental, within my own large circle of friends, are those who tend to put up and shut up. They are usually projecting their own failures.

To add @Iftheydonlygetashifton your YABU/YANBU are open ended and not fit for purpose within the chosen subject matter, which is complex.

Nah. Abuse doesn't mean battering you over the head for a start. It can, not always.

And people do the 'why did you have kids' when op has any small situation or argument - it's not about being a devil. Its ridiculous- are all these posters married to saints? People fall out, people are imperfect. Not a reason to question why the op had a family

I am one of these people, married to an awful man who I have children with. And deep down I knew he was awful even before i married him, I certainly didn't expect him to 'change' or have rose tinted glasses on.

It is my fault entirely I am in this position.

With hindsight it was my total lack of self esteem, and my low expectations that marriage should bring happiness - this was a combination of the terrible role models my parents gave me, and some rather traumatic experiences before i met my husband.

I think a LOT of women are like me.

So I am an idiot who "chose a run 'un" with my eyes wide open@Iftheydonlygetashifton

But as I don't have a time machine, the next best thing I can do is divorce him and try to rebuild my life and save my kids from the same lousy pattern of misery

Not at all. My dad (never knew him) beat my mother. Abuse started directly after marriage.

My mum said 'they'll be nice as pie until the ring is on or they've gotten you pregnant because then they think they've got you trapped, then they'll suddenly change

My experienced aligned with that

The fact is, a lot of young women are attracted to arseholes, end up having kids with these arseholes and are shocked when these arseholes they spawned with turn out to be arseholes when the babies (and it's always plural) arrive.

People's experiences vary. In some cases there may have been signs. In others, not so much.

Some signs might be obvious, but not to everyone. And there are many reasons why people don't see them or are in denial about them.

My own XH was an equal partner pre-children. Half the housework, half the cooking, supportive of my career. After children, we slid by increments into a completely different scenario but it happened imperceptibly at first.

He was cold and there was a lack of affection in our relationship. But having grown up with undemonstrative parents, that was just normal to me.

I voted YANBU because at the point a poster is asking for help, criticising them (and "why did you have children with this man?" is a criticism) is unhelpful.

The bit I find unreasonable is the idea that most of these men were substantially changed by having kids,

I'm not sure anyone is saying that.

They aren't changed by having children. Having children changes the dynamic of the relationship and provides the opportunity for abuse, control or other types of behaviour. That might not have existed before, or the abuser might not have felt the urge to behave in that way.