‘Why did you have a baby with him?’

[Iftheydonlygetashifton]

Inspired by the numerous threads on MN where the OP is in a very tough situation with kids and an abusive partner, and the responses run ‘why on Earth did you choose to have children with him? You were with him for 3 years before children’ … etc etc. My thoughts are:

a) the OP isn’t omniscient;
b) many relationships change after having kids. Often having kids exposes men to be man-children. Hence, all the single mums out there and the many fewer single dads. And the mental burden disproportionately borne by women in hetero relationships even if both do paid work FT, etc.
c) Give the OP a break.

YABU - people don’t change substantially after having kids therefore it’s on the OP if they chose a wrong un.
YANBU - people can change after kids, relationships deteriorate, we should lay off a pile-on and give practical advice and moral support.

thanks

That can be the case but often is nothing to do with it.

I grew up in a stable, connected family, with a very involved (at least by the standards of the time) father.

It's really much more to do with women's internal self-belief, self-esteem & sense of self. Which so often has not been well-developed in us growing up.

Absolutely this.

It's far from black and white.

Woman has baby, partner is shit lazy. Woman is getting older, bio clock ticking. No time to meet someone else and have another baby. So has another baby anyway. And maybe another.

She doesn't want the children to live in lesser circumstances (financially). Plus the kids love the lazy bastard. She doesn't want to share custody. She doesn't have the fecking energy. So she slogs on.

This is something I think a lot but I don't say it out loud. It's unhelpful.

Totally disagree with this. Psychopaths can hide behaviours and only show true colours when they feel their partner is locked in, through marriage or children.

A bit of both.

Some change, some mask who they are until they reel a partner in.

However, some ignore red flags, some jump straight into relationships for many reasons and don't consider things before committing, having children. My niece, has had 3 relationships in the last 3 years and just starting another. She introduces the new man to her 3 young children quickly and pictures all other social media of them all together. The poor children are very mixed up. Her parents have tried to suggest she waits and introduces new man slowly in time but she won't listen....continues to make very poor choices

Trite shite, go live in the real world.

Sometimes people make choices or are driven by what they already know rather than what would be best for them. What we know often feels best for us, when we’ve suffered abusive and dysfunctional relationships with our parent we often seek to resolve that trauma with a partner and ‘make it better’ for our baby hence healing our inner child. It doesn’t work when we choose someone who puts us through the same trauma our parent put us through but we often don’t see this at the time and ‘the heart wants what it wants’ even when it’s really trying to relive and resolve past trauma.

That's so perceptive. Took me a long time to realise this.

Utter crap

I was happily married for over 10 years. The violence didn't start until I got pregnant.

It's recognised by all research studies, leading experts and domestic violence charities that pregnancy is very often the trigger.

Stop victim blaming.

I knew my ex was somewhat useless but there is a whole push in society/media (it really isn’t subtle) that ‘the love of a good woman will fix any man’. I will also add something that’s rarely brought up - before kids there are many women that aren’t exactly the best at housekeeping and general life admin. I certainly wasn’t and it’s hard work at times keeping up with it now. There is no test run for family life, a try before you buy with a man.

However most women instinctively up their game once the responsibilities that come with children arrive, many men do not. It’s not that there were ‘always signs’, realistically those ‘flags’ can be seen in many young women with fewer responsibilities in general life. I think that’s why it’s becomes so apparent and infuriating after having children (and it’s often a slow burn getting there) - realising you have changed so much in taking on extra responsibilities and your husband still doesn’t do much more than when you were childfree.

I'd also say - I would have been someone, 20 years ago, saying / thinking 'why would you put up with this?'

I wanted an equal partner, who did housework & was interested in my life & work. I got that - my ex was a great organiser, did housework, great cook, sociable, happy to hang out with my friends, support me in anything I wanted to do.

I marvelled at some friends with lazy-arse partners.

However, it turned out that my ex was only interested when it suited him - sure he'd be organised if it was for a holiday he wanted to go on, less so regarding crèche fees & school books. He also was incapable of prioritising his DC, and my requests around that were 'nagging' & ultimately what he got pleasure in was utterly tormenting me, mostly psychologically & watching how that would cause me to fall apart.

You cannot always know how a parter's uselessness or worse will manifest.

It's always the woman's fault.

His behaviour is her responsibility because she's a 'bad chooser'.

Misogyny Rule #1 - 'women are responsible for what men do'.

Sadly, there are many, many female servants of The Patriarchy who are ready, willing and eager to reinforce that erroneous belief by foisting it onto other women. Further sad news is that The Patriarchy they seem so keen to uphold won't let those women off the hook. The minute they put a toe out of line it will come for them, too.

Hopefully this won't be at the point where they are as vulnerable as some of the victims of VAWG, emotional, coercive, financial and sexual abuse who post these threads.

However most women instinctively up their game once the responsibilities that come with children arrive, many men do not.

Exactly the case for me.

Truthfully I was quite immature before I had DC. I grew up at 30 when I had my first baby.

That meant the nature of the relationship with my ex changed, I wasn't so pathetically grateful to be loved, and he then moved to much more established abuse as a response

Maybe the most useful thing is for women to ask themselves/get asked by other people what they are using to seeing as male role models before they get that involved with a man in the first place?? As far as I can see it often happens that women (at some level) expect the same sort of treatment as they saw their father give to their mother. This may not always be the case of course - but I think women need to know whether their father gave them a good or bad role model of how men should be towards the women in their lives and, if it was a bad one, then to believe there are men out there who treat women right. It took years for it to strike me that I am pretty safe from bad treatment from men because I watched how my father treated my mother (his wife) and so I compare how men I come across treat me with those memories and one little slap across the face or it becoming clear they're mean or sloppy grooming is a regular thing and I know they aren't a "keeper" and I chuck them. So I know men are supposed to be generous towards women financially/never lay a finger on them/never be unfaithful to them etc - as that's what I grew up with seeing. The downside of that is "Don't let yourself go - remain slim/dress reasonably/don't be unfaithful" - but that's all fair enough expectations by the man imo. If someone has had a different role model to that as they grew up - then they do need to be more aware of what they are supposed to be looking out for in a relationship and find other role models to look to for how they expect to be treated by a man - but chances are some friends (or their parents) have a suitable man in their lives to compare to whilst the logical half of their brain is assessing whether a man they know is suitable to be a partner/husband to them.

Many men change after the birth of the baby. Women having maternity leave is often not seen as an opportunity for the mother to bond and recover, but as a catalyst for her taking on the bulk of the household tasks. Add in the man often resenting the closeness between mum and baby, and lack of sex.

At the same time girls and women are actively conditioned from a very early age to accept crappy male behaviour - throughout school (sitting challenging boys next to girls, high rates of sexual abuse/harassment through secondary school which largely goes unchallenged), current acceptance that porn is normal and acceptable, ditto sex work (thanks libfems!), films giving us endless examples of creepy behaviour being spun as romantic, the list goes on.

If women aren’t taught from a young age that they can expect more, how will they ever learn?

I think there is a third option. Which is the signs are clearly there, issues exist, having children just makes them worse.

I see so many threads on here, women with selfish men, putting up with shitty treatment and they don’t leave. Just make excuses to pretend it’s all ok, he’s not cheating, he’s not tight, he is too busy to pull his weight. I love him so much.And yes some of them go on to have kids with them. And it gets a lot worse.

So sure some relationships get worse after kids, but I think it’s very wrong to suggest that’s the case for all. Many were already shite.

@EarringsandLipstick I agree, there’s definitely a way to ask it so you’re not making a terrible situation worse. “Why did you have a baby” is pretty blunt and unhelpful unless you’re selling time machines. I also agree with other posters that some people just want to feel superior when they ask it.

The bit I find unreasonable is the idea that most of these men were substantially changed by having kids, it just really doesn’t sit well with me. I know psychopaths could hide their true identity forever but I cynically think most rubbish partners are always that person. I don’t blame women for being charmed by them at all though, people like that look for partners who will tolerate and/or facilitate them.

An awful lot of women have kids for their own selfish reasons. Frequently with men they know are not on board with it. Seen it happen too many times.

There are signs in the majority of cases and we need to teach young women to look out for them.

here are some signs to look out for:

• the relationship moves very quickly
• they have traditional gender norms
• they never leave you alone and want to go with you everywhere
• they love bomb to gain forgiveness after an argument

anyone have any other signs that they may have missed at the time but would know to look out for now?

Because women behaving like victims all the time is tiresome. People need to take ownership for their own bad decisions and resolve to make better ones. I was in an abusive relationship when young- I did not have a child with him. I eventually left at the age of 22 and resolved never to be treated like that again. I was young and inexperienced but I learned. My ex was wrong to be abusive but it was my decision to tolerate it...i have never done so again. My husband is a wonderful father. I chose a good man and ever day I set the bar of what I will accept.
Some people though never seem to learn, make the same decisions over and over and take no responsibility for giving their kids shit dads, shit role models and shit lives. It's extremely frustrating and in an age of equal access to education, training, finance, housing, support and advice, women have got to stop making themselves so dependant on men.

Exactly this

I think women are not always aware of what constitutes a red flag. Some don't realise that they are in an abusive or coercive relationship, or what a healthy relationship is like. Maybe they were brought up in an abusive environment.
A colleague I worked with in the late 80s was shocked that my boyfriend didn't hit me. Her's hit her and her DF hit her DM.

Many people also don't appreciate that if you've grown up without great role models, you often miss major red flags.

Growing up with them helped me identify them.
I agree media and movies have a lot to answe for but honestly i do think a lot of wen jist ignore the warning signs and press on.

Of all our friends it was clear before they married who was going to be a useless husband that would become a useless fathers. Its all playing out exactly as one would predict now we are all having children.

You are completely wrong there.

I've been married 3 times - none showed any violence before marriage, and both 1st and current husband are good after.

Second husband changed and beat the hell out of me about 54 hours after marriage. Literal u-turn.