Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

‘Why did you have a baby with him?’

314 replies

Iftheydonlygetashifton · 05/09/2023 10:29

Inspired by the numerous threads on MN where the OP is in a very tough situation with kids and an abusive partner, and the responses run ‘why on Earth did you choose to have children with him? You were with him for 3 years before children’ … etc etc. My thoughts are:

a) the OP isn’t omniscient;
b) many relationships change after having kids. Often having kids exposes men to be man-children. Hence, all the single mums out there and the many fewer single dads. And the mental burden disproportionately borne by women in hetero relationships even if both do paid work FT, etc.
c) Give the OP a break.

YABU - people don’t change substantially after having kids therefore it’s on the OP if they chose a wrong un.
YANBU - people can change after kids, relationships deteriorate, we should lay off a pile-on and give practical advice and moral support.

thanks

OP posts:
EarringsandLipstick · 05/09/2023 12:46

AInightingale · 05/09/2023 12:11

I think in a lot of cases, the pregnancy is unplanned. Or the couple have been careless because the woman hates hormonal bc and the bloke is moany about using protection, so she tries to use natural bc, and at some point it fails (of course).

Not all women are mentally able to undergo an abortion (yes, I know some will say 'shouldn't have unsafe sex then', but it happens).

And they try to make the best of it with an inadequate and unsuitable partner who isn't ready or particularly willing to be a father, and because she feels that she's 'made her bed', they may marry or have other kids together. And at some point with the natural stresses of parenthood, it all falls apart.

That is my take on it anyway.

It's a shit take then.

Read a few more threads. Many many women have planned pregnancies with men they believe they love, who love them. It might be obvious in retrospect how untrue this was - but not when they are living it.

Honestly, what's wrong with people they can have so little sense of others lives?

EarringsandLipstick · 05/09/2023 12:49

it’s very hard to wear a mask for years without it ever slipping.

It. Is. Not.
My ex would still be thought of as a friendly personable easy-going guy.

My own family, while accepting he's a shit (doesn't support his kids etc), do not really believe he was abusive.

They could never fathom the man who stood over me leering at me & mocking me, who left me penniless on more than one occasion deliberately, despite us having a good income, who undermined me so much, I didn't know who I was.

That side of him was seen only by me but not in a capacity I could do anything about, and not before our marriage.

floribunda18 · 05/09/2023 12:49

I think getting pregnant in the honeymoon stage of a relationship is really to be advised against, though I know people for whom that worked out fine. First of all it really buggers up the fun phase, plus you don't know one another nearly well enough.

But even when people do know one another very well - people can change. A lot of domestic violence starts when the partner is pregnant.

EarringsandLipstick · 05/09/2023 12:49

Tiredalwaystired · 05/09/2023 12:14

I just have no idea hoe that comment is ever supposed to be helpful. The poster has come on asking questions or for advice.

This is the singularly least helpful thing you can say in that situation. The kids are here already and you can’t put them back.

It is far more helpful to keep any judgement to yourself and offer something constructive that will help with the here and now. It doesn’t offer any more of a warning shot to other parents to be than what they can already read with their own eyes either, so it’s only ever judgemental to say it.

💯

EarringsandLipstick · 05/09/2023 12:50

The real issue here is why we blame women for their own abuse at the hands of men.

👏👏👏

And it's still a thing, I can attest to that.

Crikeyalmighty · 05/09/2023 12:50

I think the big elephant in the room here is money . Many women feel stuck because unless they have HA or council then trying to get private rented or take on huge mortgages simply won't happen and these days is nigh on impossible.

You only have to look at a situation like nigella Lawson had with Saatchi, pictured being an arse to her- next day moves out into rather nice rented. Most of us simply don't have those options.

EarringsandLipstick · 05/09/2023 12:51

BerriesPineCones · 05/09/2023 12:17

I think a person's childhood can leave them with very low expectations and low self esteem, so they put up with crap and don't realise they could do better. I had a couple of boyfriends who I put up with crap from and was just lucky to end up with a lovely one really. Not lucky he died young but at least I had nearly 20 years with him. I'd now rather be single than put up with crap, but only because he raised my expectations

This was my experience too - even tho I didn't know it as I was confident & able in other areas of my life eg professionally. Just not in relationships. .

Dramatico · 05/09/2023 12:51

I think it's incredibly cruel to kick an OP when she is down and ask stupid questions that don't have a reasonable resolution.

it's not like you can shrink the baby and stuff it back up the birth canal

I see a few posters here saying that such judgey comments are not really aimed at the OP but are more in the spirit of pur encourager les autres. Well if that's the case then they should start their own educational thread, not pile in to judge and kick the vulnerable.

rrrrrreatt · 05/09/2023 12:52

YABU. I’m the daughter of someone who repeated this pattern three times minimum - the signs are there before a child arrives but people aren’t always attuned to them. This could be because their blueprint for relationships included some level of dysfunction or because they are naive and see the best where they maybe shouldn’t.

Asking people why they made a choice, if a different option seems obvious, is the first step to self-reflection and making changes. It doesn’t have to be a question loaded with blame but acknowledging the subtle, or not so subtle, signs someone might not be able to meet your needs is so important.

There will always be a few people who are actually two different people but I think most bad partners can be identified, but will BS their way out of it given half the chance.

EarringsandLipstick · 05/09/2023 12:52

Winteriscoming12 · 05/09/2023 12:20

Well as someone who is in absolutely in the position you describe, my only comment would be that you cannot change the past, only the future. Why someone was daft enough to have kids with a tosser is a completely valid question but generally of absolutely no help on the threads on here.

Generally the women in question are pretty desperate by the time they post, and probably feeling terrible about their poor life choices. Most of the advice is incredibly helpful, and I think it is important to remind women in that situation that their children are already being damaged by living in an abusive or even just toxic environment and that ending that is the important thing.

That woman can't change the past but she needs to be helped to change the future. Her confidence in her own decision-making capabilities will already be at rock bottom, and a question like why did you make all these terrible decisions over the last X years is really not going to help or add anything, other than making her feel worse. As a statement along the lines of "you have made a series of terrible decisions that have left you and your kids in an awful situation that you, and only you, can change and you have a responsibility to change, so buckle up buttercup", that is helpful though. Tough love is needed, but phrasing it as a question expecting an answer is pointless, at least in the context of advice to that OP.

Looking back at my own situation, there were many red flag moments where I should have turned and run. Why I didn't is incredibly complex and would probably only be clear even to me with therapy. What I will say is that reading mumsnet has educated me hugely and rather than targeting the women who have already landed themselves and their kids in dire straits, we really need to be educating the girls growing up now to recognise the signs of a potential bad partner/abuser and to develop the self confidence to move on before they make the same mistakes so many women before them have made.

To be honest, every teen girl being set the Mumsnet Relationships board as compulsory homework would probably not be a bad place to start!

All of this.

I didn't know about MN while I was with my H but I wish I had.

I sometimes think back to my thinking then - I was so lonely & isolated & driven quite mad by him, my thought process was totally messed up.

VictoriaVenkman · 05/09/2023 12:53

I assume that question is designed to make the OP think about why they are making / have made poor decisions. Think about what drives them and their behaviour.

Dramatico · 05/09/2023 12:55

Whatswhatwhichiswhich · 05/09/2023 11:44

ExP changed dramatically after the birth of DC2. He did have a breakdown with his mental health and losing his job at the same time etc, he was not abusive nor violent before that. When he lost his job he hit the drink heavily. He became angrier and angrier and then the violence started. I was on MN at the time oh so very many years ago and asked for advice and got told I was outright lying that he’d never been abusive previously. It hasn’t changed in more than a decade since.

It’s not a way of reminding women not to have children with pricks, it’s a way of feeling superior that you “chose better” and are “worth more” because of it. It’s also a way to put down and keep down women who are experiencing abuse. I stayed for far longer than I should have because stupid little girls on the internet who didn’t have a brain cell between them made me feel like it was my own fault and I deserved it.

It’s not a way of reminding women not to have children with pricks, it’s a way of feeling superior that you “chose better” and are “worth more” because of it.

Yes. This. This and what @Cantstaystuckforever said.

greyhairnomore · 05/09/2023 12:55

I think you are BU.
Especially when it's he's a shit Dad and they have a second baby.
Quite often a poster has given a list of faults and red flags or they've got a poor relationship with children from a previous relationship and STILL has a baby.
Obviously there are exceptions.

willingtolearn · 05/09/2023 12:55

Fool me once shame on you
Fool me twice, shame on me

EarringsandLipstick · 05/09/2023 12:55

clementyne · 05/09/2023 12:42

@EarringsandLipstick I took multiple years aftermy marriage ended to accept my H was abusive. I knew he was a terrible person but couldn't see the abuse.

This is so true. You can think wow I am unhappy, wow, why is he like this? But when you're in it so much of your energy goes towards tuning them out or trying to appease them. It's only with time and bags of knowledge that you see how your treatment went way beyond the bounds of a difficult partner.

Yes exactly.

I wasn't stupid, I knew he was doing awful things to me & the kids.

But I truly believed it was my fault - he told me repeatedly that 'I made him like this'. I ultimately believed it was my failings as a person that led to the situations & his behaviour.

I was a professional, able woman, who would have been described as confident & tough.

It's possible to have many different personas. Inside I had absolutely no belief in myself.

EarringsandLipstick · 05/09/2023 12:57

Asking people why they made a choice, if a different option seems obvious, is the first step to self-reflection and making changes.

Sure. But not with that question, when they post seeking help.

Some gentle guided questions could help.

I'd be amazed if one woman was helped with the judgey question

EarringsandLipstick · 05/09/2023 12:58

VictoriaVenkman · 05/09/2023 12:53

I assume that question is designed to make the OP think about why they are making / have made poor decisions. Think about what drives them and their behaviour.

🙄

Gastropod · 05/09/2023 12:58

YANBU.

What's more, the amount of (implicit or explicit) victim blaming on this thread is astonishing.

Do done people really think it's that simple?

If only those women who have suffered, often for years, in abusive relationships had just "chosen" to leave - or better still, had chosen to not even embark on the relationship in the first place. Easy!

toomuchforonewoman · 05/09/2023 12:58

TheBarbieEffect · 05/09/2023 10:30

YABU. Nobody is an angel before kids/marriage and then radically turns into the devil.

The signs are there. If people choose not to read them that’s up to them.

Absolutely NOT true.

Smellslikesummer · 05/09/2023 12:58

Of course there will be the odd man who is a great partner until DC arrive and will completely change for the worse.

This is not what happens most of the time though, it usually starts with a young couple where the woman does everything household related and ‘doesn’t mind’. But then when you add DC it is just too much work for one person to handle and this is when the boyfriend/husband not carrying their weight becomes problematic.

I’d really like to shake these women up and tell them to stop cooking/cleaning/tidying etc : if your partner thinks these jobs are yours by default do not have children with him!!!
Same if you need to ask him - how come you manage to do things without him reminding you?
You don’t want a man that ‘helps you’ you want a man that considers it his job, is proactive, contributes to the mental load, etc.

EarringsandLipstick · 05/09/2023 12:59

willingtolearn · 05/09/2023 12:55

Fool me once shame on you
Fool me twice, shame on me

Does posting this trite saying make you feel like you're providing a valuable contribution?

Because relationships cannot be summed up like this.

Serendipitoushedgehog · 05/09/2023 13:01

I think sometimes when there are generational cycles of bad or absent fathers, people don’t always realise that it doesn’t have to be that way. If that is the environment you’ve grown up in and what’s around you then it just seems normal. And there’s the frog boiling in hot water effect as well, sometimes things get worse over time.

DuplicateUserName · 05/09/2023 13:01

Gilead · 05/09/2023 12:43

But you know enough not to plan a second pregnancy surely?
You are assuming consent is given.

Well yes, I didn't assume rape, I admit.

EarringsandLipstick · 05/09/2023 13:01

Gastropod · 05/09/2023 12:58

YANBU.

What's more, the amount of (implicit or explicit) victim blaming on this thread is astonishing.

Do done people really think it's that simple?

If only those women who have suffered, often for years, in abusive relationships had just "chosen" to leave - or better still, had chosen to not even embark on the relationship in the first place. Easy!

Yes. 🙏🏻

That's the whole point of abusive situations. That's why they 'work' (for the abuser). I mean, of course, it would be good if we could all go, hang on, this is not appropriate treatment of me.

I'll call it out / leave / not have children.

That's not how it works sadly.

And more, abusive men know who to try their abuse out on. That's why some women can be baffled that this can happen.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 05/09/2023 13:03

Tbh it’s a stupid comment to voice even if the person has walked through a million red flags and ignored them all - all it does is add a layer of further shame or awkwardness, which makes them less likely to speak out further or ask for help and then they less likely to be able to find it in themselves to leave the situation.