‘Why did you have a baby with him?’

[Iftheydonlygetashifton]

Inspired by the numerous threads on MN where the OP is in a very tough situation with kids and an abusive partner, and the responses run ‘why on Earth did you choose to have children with him? You were with him for 3 years before children’ … etc etc. My thoughts are:

a) the OP isn’t omniscient;
b) many relationships change after having kids. Often having kids exposes men to be man-children. Hence, all the single mums out there and the many fewer single dads. And the mental burden disproportionately borne by women in hetero relationships even if both do paid work FT, etc.
c) Give the OP a break.

YABU - people don’t change substantially after having kids therefore it’s on the OP if they chose a wrong un.
YANBU - people can change after kids, relationships deteriorate, we should lay off a pile-on and give practical advice and moral support.

thanks

Well as someone who is in absolutely in the position you describe, my only comment would be that you cannot change the past, only the future. Why someone was daft enough to have kids with a tosser is a completely valid question but generally of absolutely no help on the threads on here.

Generally the women in question are pretty desperate by the time they post, and probably feeling terrible about their poor life choices. Most of the advice is incredibly helpful, and I think it is important to remind women in that situation that their children are already being damaged by living in an abusive or even just toxic environment and that ending that is the important thing.

That woman can't change the past but she needs to be helped to change the future. Her confidence in her own decision-making capabilities will already be at rock bottom, and a question like why did you make all these terrible decisions over the last X years is really not going to help or add anything, other than making her feel worse. As a statement along the lines of "you have made a series of terrible decisions that have left you and your kids in an awful situation that you, and only you, can change and you have a responsibility to change, so buckle up buttercup", that is helpful though. Tough love is needed, but phrasing it as a question expecting an answer is pointless, at least in the context of advice to that OP.

Looking back at my own situation, there were many red flag moments where I should have turned and run. Why I didn't is incredibly complex and would probably only be clear even to me with therapy. What I will say is that reading mumsnet has educated me hugely and rather than targeting the women who have already landed themselves and their kids in dire straits, we really need to be educating the girls growing up now to recognise the signs of a potential bad partner/abuser and to develop the self confidence to move on before they make the same mistakes so many women before them have made.

To be honest, every teen girl being set the Mumsnet Relationships board as compulsory homework would probably not be a bad place to start!

I completely agree.

It's also very easy to be wise after the event. The boiling frog analogy exists for a reason.

Because they are being twatty and they know it. What is the OP supposed to think? 'Thank you for your input, I'm enlightened now, I'll just pop the baby back where it came from, this has been really helpful-thanks again'?!

Echoing this! The pointlessness of the people who post to ask 'why did you have kids with him?' It's plain nasty, as the OP is asking for advice and support and a bit of empathy, and yes they do get called out, but it doesn't seem to stop them.
edited stupid autocorrect

Totally untrue, and in many different ways.

Sometimes, theoretically, the signs are there (eg abuse) but the person being abused is unable to see them. Not unwilling or actively ignoring them.

Sometimes the opportunities for abuse only present after DC are born.

Sometimes the question is why the poster went on to have more children with the man - as I did. The fact is many women don't see the reality of what is happening to them, they are now trapped & vulnerable. Having more children can seem like the 'right' thing to do to create desired happy marriage & family life.

Your post is so insulting.

When you get together with someone, I think there's a tendency to slip into a homemaker role. When you are in the honeymoon phase you might not notice that he isn't really pulling his weight.

When a child comes along, the woman is naturally the main caregiver to the baby, and if on ML will probably be doing a lot of the household chores. When she goes back to work, the household and parenting duties remain hers.

She asks for him to pull his weight and he gets nasty.

It's cruel and pointless to blame a woman for her individual choices when society at large has been pushing her in an unhelpful direction. PP have already mentioned romantic novels and family pressure- let's add to that films and TV, religion, newspapers, the criminal justice system, the lot. We are saturated from a young age by messages telling us that jealousy means he really loves us, hitting means he's just passionate ("He hit me and it felt like a kiss" anyone?), men "are just like that", marriage is sacred and you should work to keep it going, women are the more nurturing so it's natural to do the bulk of childcare, and on and on and on....It's hardly surprising that women, especially those without helpful role models and family, are going to absorb all this, is it?! Certainly, as an autistic girl with an abusive father, I got a lot of my core beliefs about relationships from Jilly Cooper novels- no wonder I'm fucked up!

The other elephant in the room is: where are all these good men that we should be procreating with? Male laziness, entitlement and an expectation to be facilitated by women are widespread- I'd argue that they are still the norm. A truly equal male partner and co parent is still vanishingly rare. But yeah, it's all the woman's fault if she can't find one of those mythical beasts 🙄. The patriarchy benefits ALL men.

*YABU. Nobody is an angel before kids/marriage and then radically turns into the devil.

The signs are there. If people choose not to read them that’s up to them*

Absolutely not true, and probably trotted out by someone who has never been in that situation. Be thankful, and stop judging the fuck out of other women.

Rubbish. There are many people who becomes addicts and drastically change.

Oh god yes op!! Drives me nuts!! We all change after having children, I am definitely not the easygoing person I was pre children and both of us are more tired and have the pressure now of financially looking after a family when comes the second no1 arrives!

Exactly. It's very well documented that pregnancy is a time when male partners become violent for the first time. As in, actual studies and statistics are available for PPs to peruse. I cannot stand the smugness about this topic.

If men can become violent for the first time during pregnancy, it stands to reason they can become shitty in less drastic ways too

Words (nearly) fail me.

You ignore the reality of someone who may not even know they are being abused. Who thinks they are doing something wrong, it must be normal.

That having DC was the plan in life, and things will change ...

Seems crazy to a logical mind, to someone not trapped in an abusive relationship.

To someone who is, sadly it does not.

My relationship is unrecognisable since kids. YANBU!

So diminishing.

Perhaps a small number.

For many more, they really want children - and also want the happy home life, loving marriage. It's not 'endless' children with 'any' man. It's a desire to create a deeply-held dream, and not being able to see the reality is far from that, and there are other options.

But you know enough not to plan a second pregnancy surely?

Everyone will give a poster the benefit of the doubt if she's had a kid with someone: that man may have presented very well before having kids and have completely turned on a dime once he'd had them. But anyone who goes on to have a second (and sometimes third and fourth) child with such a man really does deserve a stern talking to.

Really???

Life is not that simple. A 'stern talking to' - who the hell are you to decide a school mistress tone of hectoring is what is needed?

Life & relationships are complicated. If a women is assertive, confident & with high self-esteem, they may see & act on signs of poor or abusive behaviour & leave the marriage / have no more DC.

A woman who is experiencing abuse daily is having her sense of self eroded, and it is much harder to make decisions that consider all the options available to her.

In my case, I assumed I would be married to my H forever. I assumed it even when I was miserable & near breakdown. I saw no other option. Thank God somehow the penny dropped & I got advice which propelled me to get him out. I had 3 DC by then, the youngest was 2

Yanbu-pre children, you are only really responsible for your own life and managing yourself but post children, you have to manage life as a group which often exposes partners poor organisation or procrastinating. When you have children, things that aren't done affects everyone but pre it usually only affects the one person.

This just isn't true. It's a well documented thing that many men begin domestic abuse once they sense that a woman is way less likely to leave, for example, if she is trapped by having a young child.

I'm invested because this happened to me. My DP did 50:50 of the housework, was supportive of my career, had never been aggressive to me or raised his voice to me. As soon as DC was born he completely turned. Controlling, screams at me, calls me every name under the sun, breaks furniture if he doesn't get his way. Looking back, there were a few signs, things like wanting to be the one to organise days out and being particular about cooking, but they seemed like little quirks rather than signs of future abuse. I certainly didn't "chooe not to read them", though, I just didn't recognise them for what they were.

Because they are not thinking clearly.

Aside from abuse, just thinking of the obvious feckless lazy arse DP/H we hear about here so often, women are often driven to pursue an unattainable goal of family happiness, 'if I only do x or y...' or 'he might change if the following thing / situation / condition happens ...'

It can be hard to have the prescience that it seems easy to have, looking in on a situation

I took multiple years after my marriage ended to accept my H was abusive. I knew he was a terrible person but couldn't see the abuse.

You've so little idea.

I don't disagree with asking, what can you do to change the situation? What do you want? How likely is it your DP/H can change to provide this?

However asking 'why did you have children with this man?' is going to do nothing other than guilt or antagonise the OP.

What difference does it make why?

What she needs is help to act now

It is a tricky one, the ones I struggle with though are step parenting ones where the mum is question was fully on board with step parenting then has one of her own and suddenly hates the step kids!

but yes men can and do change for the worse, but equally if a man was selfish before kids (I.e) hobby before his partner at every turn he isn’t likely to change!

@EarringsandLipstick I took multiple years aftermy marriage ended to accept my H was abusive. I knew he was a terrible person but couldn't see the abuse.

This is so true. You can think wow I am unhappy, wow, why is he like this? But when you're in it so much of your energy goes towards tuning them out or trying to appease them. It's only with time and bags of knowledge that you see how your treatment went way beyond the bounds of a difficult partner.

But you know enough not to plan a second pregnancy surely?
You are assuming consent is given.

@Gerrataere

Excellent points.

I confess to some of it being true for me. I knew my H was awful. (Tho he'd have moments that gave me hope)

But I wanted more DC. I couldn't see a life beyond my marriage so it seemed better to keep going.

It wasn't as logical as that - there was a lot going on, as well as the awful marriage, including illness, recession, job issues, and the DC element happened around that, not necessarily with conscious thought

As PP mentioned, the comment isn't really intended to the OP... it's too late for the OP. More a warning to everyone reading... just seriously think before you have kids with a man.

And that's fine. I've said that lots myself.

But the line isn't that - it's blaming the OP, pointlessly.