Mrs and Mr Smith

[Oysterbabe]

When I write client letters I always put the woman's name first in the address and write
Dear Mrs & Mr Smith. The letters have to be checked before posting and my boss always swaps the names back because 'it doesn't flow properly'
AIBU for always writing the woman's name first?

I always put whoever I've been dealing with first. So if most of my correspondence has been with the husband I'd put his name first.

I haven't got the time to be arsed about pathetic crap like this, would be nice to though 🤣

OK that's nice but abortion was only legalised in Ireland in 2019 and the last Magdalene Laundry wasn't closed until 1996, the Catholic Church still has to fully reckon with the decades of institutionalised child abuse (don't get me started on the desultory compensation payments made thus far) so I feel Ireland needs to build up a tad bit more of a track record before they can position themselves as a world leader in social attitudes

So... 'this is going to piss off a lot of women but do it anyway' ?

Etiquette is about manners and rule number one is surely 'don't piss people off if you can help it'.

Mrs and Mr is just weird!

I don't use them in letters, other than perhaps for the address. I use to person's given name.

When you do the booking you are asked who the lead passenger is.
They don't just change it.
Only the lead passenger can make changes

When you do the booking you are asked who the lead passenger is.

I've had it changed.

On one airline, flying to the Channel Islands, it was not possible to put me as the lead passenger.

Why was it not possible?

It was a long time ago (circa 2016 I think) but the online form was set up that way and when I went to pay it asked for his credit card details naming him as 'lead passenger' (or equivalent). From what I remember the ferries were similar. I ended up booking me as 'Mr' and him as 'Ms' in the end because he wasn't around and I just needed to secure the damn booking.

I find Spencer and Marks flows just as well as M&S.

S&M is possibly a less desirable shorthand for them, though

Yes…. Perhaps not! 😂

2016 is like yesterday lol or maybe I'm showing my age!
I've always done the bookings and I've never seen this

In France it's always Madame et Monsieur

That history is exactly why people in Ireland, many of us female, have pushed for change whenever and wherever we could. The frequent statement on this thread that things should be done because they are traditional, or because they are accepted usage, seems not just archaic but dangerous.

'Mother and father' is different from 'Mr and Mrs though, isn't it?

in the spy film, its Mr and Mrs Smith
with brad and ang

Yes the patriarchy needs to be challenged. And yes, everyday sexism is a problem that often fails to be noticed.

And yet….

I can’t get on board with Mrs and Mr. It sounds clumsy and awkward. I think it’s fine if you use the full names separately but not together.

Mrs and Mr Jones - no

Mrs Jones and Mr Jones- absolutely fine

I don’t think it’s just because we’re used to hearing Mr and Mrs, although undoubtedly that’s part of it.

I think it’s possibly more to do with how we use plurals in this country and how we structure those sentences. So we’d say Janet and John’s house. The “s” comes after the second name.

So although Mrs and Mrs isn’t the same type of sentence grammatically, I think it’s more familiar and pleasing to hear the “s” on the second word.

Undoubtedly misogyny and sexism are at the root of how this salutation originated, but I don’t think that’s at the core of why it’s used today.

And with more women retaining their surnames it’s possible to change those joint greetings to put the woman’s name first without sounding awkward for the sake of it.

Also, not all male and female pairings put the woman second. For example, the Bank of Mum and Dad.

I do think we should be pushing back on the small things - but not where it makes us look petty or ridiculous. And I think altering Mr and Mrs to Mrs and Mr is phonetically awful, and not a good hill to die on. Switch up other letter headings by all means though. That’s much easier to argue and entirely valid.

Another beef I have is 'master bedroom'. I always say 'main bedroom'.

Dangerous? Maybe? The point I've been making on this thread is that positive action, ie legislative change to enshrine the rights of women, is better than superficial things. So enshrining abortion rights, which the UK was in the vanguard of in the western world, and Ireland was, ahem, very much not (even in 2018 40% voted against which genuinely staggered me), is more important to me that the fact that in Ireland letters to married couples are addressed to "Ms and Mr Smith" (are u sure about that by the way?).

But yes, Irish feminists have worked incredibly hard to advance the oppressed status of women in the country and have achieved historical successes in the past decades. I actually physically applauded when I read that they finally got that monster Barbie Kardashian out of Limerick Women's.

I always put Mrs Sarah Smith & Mr John Smith when I'm writing reports for work. In my role 90% of the time I will deal with the female (mother) so its a bit weird to put her name second when she has been the primary point of contact. I don't really care if it's conventionally wrong.

Your actions betray your words.

Forks and knives.
Pears and apples.
Knees and hands.
Chips and fish.
Pieces and bits.
Then and now.
Gentlemen and ladies.

That sounds better doesn’t it?

I prefer not to use titles, and would default to sending to A&B Smith, though it all depends on what details you have. I would question it at work if someone insisted on Mr & Mrs, but I am known for asking awkward questions. I rarely deal with anything so formal though.

We did have a mail round at work saying we should no longer refer to master-slave configurations, but primary and secondary. Also black box and white box testing I think was changed to closed and open testing, and male and female connections- can't remember, maybe outward and inward connectors.

My point is that 'correctness' follows usage, and when a lot of people use a particular term, it enters into the dictionary and becomes 'correct'. It would take a long time for Mrs and Mr Jones to sound correct, but if Mrs Jones has e.g. set up an account and is the main contact then I don't see why the company shouldn't use Dear Mrs and Mr. But as I said, this acceptance will take time.

These are interesting. I've noticed that the more important (or main) part comes first - fish and chips, plums and custard, etc. But sometimes it might just sound better. Note that normally with things like ping pong, sing song and flip flop, the vowels are in alphabetical. But there's no doubt that Mr comes first because the little lady was just an add-on to the important chap.