Mrs and Mr Smith

[Oysterbabe]

When I write client letters I always put the woman's name first in the address and write
Dear Mrs & Mr Smith. The letters have to be checked before posting and my boss always swaps the names back because 'it doesn't flow properly'
AIBU for always writing the woman's name first?

Someone does not have to get paid more. Not for the same job. That's illegal.
Housework. If he expects you to do more you need to sort that out. Doesn't happen in our house.
A name on an envelope that'll go in the bin? Really not an issue

You read my sentence that I appreciate consistent written standards and determine that I'm 'irked' because you put the female subject before the male?

I've been writing to people at work for over 30 years and have never put full stops after Mr or Mrs

But then it's probably longer than that since I've heard about school leavers doing 'secretarial courses'.

Whereas I wouldn't even notice.

Full names on envelopes and the convention someone mentioned earlier about it being Mr and Mrs on the envelope and Jill and Jack in the letter or card is because of the division between the formal public sphere and the informal private sphere.

In public, the man is historically in charge (remember couverture?) and so on the public part of the correspondence, the envelope, must always be man-first. In some periods of history, men opened all their wives and minor children's letters so the name on the envelope wouldn't necessarily affect who opened it.

If the letter was formal public sphere stuff, like a bill or legal document, it would open with a man-first greeting with Mr and Mrs.

BUT, if it's a personal letter, like a family letter or greetings card from friends, it's a private item and so the woman, whose domain is the domestic and family private sphere, should be the first name in the greeting and the writer should use first names.

Also the surnames on the envelope ensure that if you misaddress the card to 12 instead of 21, the people in 12 will realise that the letter is not for them, which they might not do if the envelope is addressed to "Mum and Dad".

I thought the normal thing was Mr and Mrs and then Dear Mary and John, so man first on one and woman first on the other. Don't know where I got that from. it might be very old fashioned.

@sunshinesupermum

Editors and proofreaders know what they're talking about.

Editors and proofreaders would also endure a sharp rise in blood pressure if they were to read this thread.

One could argue that it isn't particularly professional to bring personal politics to the table in the workplace. Nor is contradicting the company's style guide (if it exists).

DoltAgainPlz I'll be sure to ask my editor and writer friends whether they use full stops or not.

WHAT? What are you supposed to put then? What a load of weirdos.

Mind you there are a load of weirdos here too who actually get offended by being called Ms.

I don't doubt you're correct in todays world, I'm just stating how it used to be when I was young. Mr is an abbreviation of Mister, so it used to have a full stop. It's just the way it was , but now things have changed.

If there's one thing these threads always show, it's that you may as well do what you want in these matters.

There is no version that won't piss someone off, no option that's apolitical and neutral. And no institution or person has the standing to pronounce on what's correct. May as well just pick your poison.

Sorry but if your boss wants something a certain way then YABU to repeatedly ignore it.

I do this too. Stuff sexist convention.

I'm 70 and did my secretarial course over 50 years ago, the full stop and no full stop were both taught and the full stop version was referred to as the old style on the way out.

Birmingham council -

news.sky.com/story/amp/birmingham-city-council-effectively-declares-bankruptcy-after-being-hit-by-760m-bill-12955400

Birmingham City Council effectively declares bankruptcy after being hit by £760m bill
Birmingham City Council has formally declared itself in financial distress - confirming in a statement that all new spending, with the exception of protecting vulnerable people and statutory services, must stop immediately.

The council said it had issued a section 114 notice, confirming that all new spending, with the exception of protecting vulnerable people and statutory services, must stop immediately.
In a statement declaring itself in financial distress, the local authority said it will "tighten the spend controls already in place and put them in the hands of the section 151 officer to ensure there is complete grip".
The Labour-run council is the largest local authority in Europe, comprising 101 councillors (65 Labour, 22 Conservative, 12 Liberal Democrat and two Green).
The statement read: "Birmingham City Council has issued a s.114 notice as part of the plans to meet the council's financial liabilities relating to equal pay claims and an in-year financial gap within its budget which currently stands in the region of £87m.
"In June, the council announced it had a potential liability relating to equal pay claims in the region of £650m to £760m, with an ongoing liability accruing at a rate of £5m to £14m per month.
"The council is still in a position where it must fund the equal pay liability that has accrued to date (in the region of £650m to £760m), but it does not have the resources to do so."
It added: "The council's senior officers and members are committed to dealing with the financial situation and when more information is available it will be shared.

convention = peer pressure from dead people. just because ideas are tenacious doesn’t mean they are worthy (credit to Tim Minchin)

It doesn't flow properly. What tosh! Your boss just needs to be more honest and say 'I prefer you to follow outdated conventions'. The only solution is to ennoble all the women you write to as I think they would then be addressed as Lady and Mr Smith.

i tend to avoid titles and use alphabetical order so Anne and Clive Smith but Clive and Penelope Smith.

The Origin of Private Property, the Family, and the State by Engels makes it clear that couverture, and marriage more generally, was less a matter of female choice and far more a matter of male desire to control reproductive access to women's uteri. Women have always been seen as babymaking resources to be stolen and controlled. Viking raids were in part a consequence of women-as-resource thinking, not a cause of it.

Men protecting women only works until the Vikings kill the men in question. It's interesting that female Viking warriors are attested to. It's almost like the Norse and Danish women knew that it's more reliable to defend yourself than to hope that someone else will do it for you.

Wrong thread.

We've just renewed our mortgage and the bank put me as lead applicant, as should be the case at I'm the higher earner, it's never happened before though.
With cards I area it to the person I knew first, eg I had a friend Susan, she gets married to John. Christmas card goes from being to Susan, to Susan and John. The pre established relationship is with her, I wouldn't even know him other than through her so why would I address him first? On the other hand if I knew Dave and he marries Linda I would address any cards to Dave and Linda for the same reason.
When signing cards DH and I sign from whoever has actually written it and the other, and dc.

Just like the convention of saying Mother and Father, isn't it? I assume for MN this is totally acceptable!

You shojld put whoever is the main person dealing with things first, doesn't depend on gender

M'r

M'r's

D'r

nah

At least Ms is clean and not an obvious abbreviation of anything, but better just to use a personal name initial (without a full stop) and have done with it. A & B Smith.

Not that I'm married but I'd expect a letter addressed to

Ms My name and Mr His name.